Onhell
Infinite Dreamer
This thread was started in the "General" forum but quickly ignored. this is a great song and a good discussion was going on before getting sidetracked. what i did was copy all the posts that delt with the song so it can be discussed again.
MigDaimon Posted: Mar 7 2004, 07:51 PM
Wrathchild
Group: Members
Posts: 22
Member No.: 1,967
Joined: 3-March 04
It's not needed to say how wonderful this song is. Its my favourite above all Maiden songs. It has loads of feeling.
However, there are two questions stuck in my head.
First One
'Cos at fice o'clock
They'll take me to the Gallows Pole
What time will be the hang ? Will it be at FIVE AM OR FIVE PM ?
Is there a way to know the exactly time ? I mean, since i'm a brazilian guy who has not the cultural knowledegment that living with the idiom gives, I believe that YOU guys can tell my what was the exactly time. Can you ?
Five AM is the one I'd bet. I think is more powerful this way. The guy in the song has spent the whole night thinking of his life and so.
However, since for me at least, the song has a medieval mood, is very possible that the time is Five PM. The people had worked all day long and in the end of the day they'll have some fun watching the "heretic" die.
What do you think ?
Question two
Hallowed by Thy Name
Hallowed Be Thy Name
The last phrases. What are the meaning of this words ? Why Hallowed Be Thy Name ?
The Mockery Theory : The guy in the song thinks God has betrayed him. So saying this is almost like saying "Hey look at me you bastard, look to what have you done. In your name I will be killed. So Hallowed Be Thy Name" His mockering, leaving the guilt of his murder to God
The Honor Theory : The guy accept his fate and really don't care about this world anymore (saints and sinners... ). He knows that only God can save him. That the only truth is God's truth. So he say Hallowed Be Thy Name in the honor of God.
The Third and most absurd theory : This came to mind lately. In the first "Hallowed Be Thy Name" the guy is mockering God. His is really anger with the almighty Lord that has left him die in such a stupid way. But in the second "Hallowed Be Thy Name" his realizes that his death is not God's fault. It's a human fault. Also he realizes that dying he will be joining God, his is going to be better there, outside that world that has gone so wrong for him.
This theory came when I realize that Bruce give a more relaxed mood in the second phrase, instead of the rage in the first one.
So. What do you think ?
P.S.: Excuse me for my poor english.
Peaveyraptor Posted: Mar 7 2004, 07:58 PM
Poached Egg Man
Group: Members
Posts: 105
Member No.: 1,844
Joined: 16-February 04
Five o' clock in the morning. Traditionally people were hung at dawn.
Hallowed Be Thy Name refers to the Our Father prayer, I suppose. "Our Father, who art in heaven, hallowed be thy name" and so on. I'm not sure what the significance is in relation to the song. Repentance, I suppose.
--------------------
I am the friend of the dancing bananas.
mercury Posted: Mar 7 2004, 10:06 PM
Beast
Group: Members
Posts: 699
Member No.: 1,560
Joined: 7-January 04
thats what i think Its five in the morning.
--------------------
LIFE IS SHORT ROCK HARD
Atvarussmak Posted: Mar 12 2004, 10:36 AM
Wrathchild
Group: Members
Posts: 17
Member No.: 2,009
Joined: 12-March 04
I would proberly make it worse if they were being hung at 5 AM.
They would proberly be up all night.
Also they would proberly leave the body on the rope to scare the other prisioners.
Why he says hallowed by thy name. I could be he was saying the lords prayer just before he dies. Many heretics beleave in god, just not the cristian god.
--------------------
"Day after day, day after day,
we stuck nor breath nor motion
as idle as a painted ship upon a painted ocean
Water, water everywhere and
all the boards did shrink
Water, water everywhere nor any drop to drink."
huxley Posted: Mar 12 2004, 12:04 PM
Wrathchild
Group: Members
Posts: 49
Member No.: 1,448
Joined: 21-November 03
damned what a bad night
--------------------
the good that men do is often interred with their bones but the evil that men do lives on
LooseCannon Posted: Mar 12 2004, 03:02 PM
Beast
Group: Historians
Posts: 963
Member No.: 283
Joined: 3-March 03
That's an interesting question you pose, both of them. Although I would have to go with 5 AM myself, for reasons already given.
As for the line Hallowed Be Thy Name, you have to watch the progression of the lyrics to fully understand this line. As the lyrics go from beginning to end, we have a prisoner who is completely overwhelmed by the fact that, come 5 o'clock, he will be having his neck stretched.
His belief in "never being an end" is sort of a Abrahamic view (That is, the school of religions encompassing Judaeism, Christianity, and Islam) with the belief of a heaven (or hell, I guess) where existence continues. He also makes a reference or two to his soul, which is not a predominantly Christian belief, but it is present.
Only his belief in the afterlife is what keeps this man calm as he is lead out. Two lines are interesting "If there's a God, why has He let me go". "Though the end is near I'm not sorry". The first line is definately anti-Jew/Christian/Muslim, at least. Althought this could be catagorized as the bitterness any condemned man must feel. The second line tells us that he is holding true to his actions, which brings up two suggestions:
1) This person is a hypocrite Jew/Christian/Muslim, who is unable to atone for his sins, but believes he will carry on in the favourable afterlife (although I will admit I am unsure of the structure of the Afterlife in the Islamic faith, I think it's pretty safe to assume we're talking about Christians here). This could be an outlash at the structure of religion, especially certain forms of Christianity, which teaches that salvation is beyond no one's grasp. Or we just could be dealing with an arrogant human. "Hallowed Be Thy Name" makes sense in this context as it is the prisoner's dying prayer, his attempt to gain salvation by providing the base ritual many Christians are indoctrinated with. Not that I am saying anything against the faith, but I believe that if the Christians are right then you can't gain their form of salvation just by saying Our Father every day.
2) This person ISN'T a Jew/Christian/Muslim, and is being persecuted for such. He is steadfast in his own beliefs (his belief that he will continue to exist) and his scream against God is a sarcastic shot at the men executing him in the name of faith. How can someone be Godly when they kill someone for being different? "Hallowed Be Thy Name" makes sense in this context as the condemned's last cry at his captors, turning the prayer into something part-sarcastic and part-reminding. If He is supposed to be gentle and forgiving, and you who execute me are trying to gain access to His plane of existence someday, how come you go against some of His basic tenents?
Okay, that's my take on it. Be aware, I have a tendancy to over analyze songs. There's a huge chance that Steve just thought it would reflect on the confused mind of a condemned man. Or that he picked the lyrics because they flow well together.
And now, if you will excuse me...
Oooohhh yeah.
This post has been edited by LooseCannon on Mar 12 2004, 03:02 PM
--------------------
When all has been layed to ruin
And burnination has forsaken the countryside
Only one guy will remain
My money's on TROGDOR!!!
Onhell Posted: Mar 12 2004, 07:41 PM
Phantom Of The Opera
Group: Members
Posts: 215
Member No.: 1,109
Joined: 26-September 03
Warn: (0%)
QUOTE (Atvarussmak @ Mar 12 2004, 10:36 AM)
Why he says hallowed by thy name. I could be he was saying the lords prayer just before he dies. Many heretics beleave in god, just not the cristian god.
If he says the lords prayer he believes in the Christian God, if not he wouldn't even know it. Something just hit me....This could be an inquisition hanging where the person is not sorry because he is not guilty (as were most if not all of the people who were hung/burnt by the inquisition). He wonders why God let's him go if he even exists because he is innocent. As for Hallowed be thy name.... In the movie The Crucible With Daniel Day Louis and Wynnona Rider, is based on the play of the same title by Arthur Miller. It tells the story of the Witch Trials in Salem Massachussetes in the 1600's and how people simply acused each other because they hated them for one reason or another, not because they were real witches. It was written in the 50's as a critic on McCarthy's Communist witch hunts in the U.S. However, in the Movie D.D.L's Character is going to be hung (at the end of the movie) and before they knock the stool from under him he begins to say the lords prayer and as he says "deliver us from evil...." BAM he disapears from the screen and all you see is the rope swinging back and forth...
The movie was made in 1996...however there have been various version in 1957, 1967 and 1980. There is one silent movie "the crucible" 1914 obviously not based on Miller's book. I believe this correlation with the movie is a coincidence (an eerie one) but still i felt compelled to mention it. and yes how can i forget.... OOOH YEEAH
This post has been edited by Onhell on Mar 12 2004, 07:41 PM
--------------------
"We eat Metal and shit chains"-Timmo Tolki
LooseCannon Posted: Mar 18 2004, 02:26 PM
Beast
Group: Historians
Posts: 963
Member No.: 283
Joined: 3-March 03
I thought they burned people during the inquisistion, Onhell. But, I could be wrong. Will check with Duke.
Otherwise, it's a very valid point, one I never really thought of.
--------------------
When all has been layed to ruin
And burnination has forsaken the countryside
Only one guy will remain
My money's on TROGDOR!!!
IronDuke Posted: Mar 18 2004, 06:05 PM
Wrathchild
Group: Historians
Posts: 40
Member No.: 1,259
Joined: 23-October 03
To clarify for LooseCannon et al:
(keep in mind I haven't read any of the posts on this thread yet)
During the inquisition, burning was the standard sentence given to those who quickly confessed to the "crimes" of which they were accused. It was, believe it or not, the most humane punishment offered to heretics, as the victim would usually suffocate from smoke inhalation well before the flames consumed their bodies. Compared to the alternatives, this was relatively painless.
Those who did not confess were not so lucky. The methods of torture varied, but some common ones were the rack (having limbs pulled to the point of seperation from the body), brandings, starvation, and even the iron maiden (hence the nameof the band we all adore!)
MigDaimon Posted: Mar 7 2004, 07:51 PM
Wrathchild
Group: Members
Posts: 22
Member No.: 1,967
Joined: 3-March 04
It's not needed to say how wonderful this song is. Its my favourite above all Maiden songs. It has loads of feeling.
However, there are two questions stuck in my head.
First One
'Cos at fice o'clock
They'll take me to the Gallows Pole
What time will be the hang ? Will it be at FIVE AM OR FIVE PM ?
Is there a way to know the exactly time ? I mean, since i'm a brazilian guy who has not the cultural knowledegment that living with the idiom gives, I believe that YOU guys can tell my what was the exactly time. Can you ?
Five AM is the one I'd bet. I think is more powerful this way. The guy in the song has spent the whole night thinking of his life and so.
However, since for me at least, the song has a medieval mood, is very possible that the time is Five PM. The people had worked all day long and in the end of the day they'll have some fun watching the "heretic" die.
What do you think ?
Question two
Hallowed by Thy Name
Hallowed Be Thy Name
The last phrases. What are the meaning of this words ? Why Hallowed Be Thy Name ?
The Mockery Theory : The guy in the song thinks God has betrayed him. So saying this is almost like saying "Hey look at me you bastard, look to what have you done. In your name I will be killed. So Hallowed Be Thy Name" His mockering, leaving the guilt of his murder to God
The Honor Theory : The guy accept his fate and really don't care about this world anymore (saints and sinners... ). He knows that only God can save him. That the only truth is God's truth. So he say Hallowed Be Thy Name in the honor of God.
The Third and most absurd theory : This came to mind lately. In the first "Hallowed Be Thy Name" the guy is mockering God. His is really anger with the almighty Lord that has left him die in such a stupid way. But in the second "Hallowed Be Thy Name" his realizes that his death is not God's fault. It's a human fault. Also he realizes that dying he will be joining God, his is going to be better there, outside that world that has gone so wrong for him.
This theory came when I realize that Bruce give a more relaxed mood in the second phrase, instead of the rage in the first one.
So. What do you think ?
P.S.: Excuse me for my poor english.
Peaveyraptor Posted: Mar 7 2004, 07:58 PM
Poached Egg Man
Group: Members
Posts: 105
Member No.: 1,844
Joined: 16-February 04
Five o' clock in the morning. Traditionally people were hung at dawn.
Hallowed Be Thy Name refers to the Our Father prayer, I suppose. "Our Father, who art in heaven, hallowed be thy name" and so on. I'm not sure what the significance is in relation to the song. Repentance, I suppose.
--------------------
I am the friend of the dancing bananas.
mercury Posted: Mar 7 2004, 10:06 PM
Beast
Group: Members
Posts: 699
Member No.: 1,560
Joined: 7-January 04
thats what i think Its five in the morning.
--------------------
LIFE IS SHORT ROCK HARD
Atvarussmak Posted: Mar 12 2004, 10:36 AM
Wrathchild
Group: Members
Posts: 17
Member No.: 2,009
Joined: 12-March 04
I would proberly make it worse if they were being hung at 5 AM.
They would proberly be up all night.
Also they would proberly leave the body on the rope to scare the other prisioners.
Why he says hallowed by thy name. I could be he was saying the lords prayer just before he dies. Many heretics beleave in god, just not the cristian god.
--------------------
"Day after day, day after day,
we stuck nor breath nor motion
as idle as a painted ship upon a painted ocean
Water, water everywhere and
all the boards did shrink
Water, water everywhere nor any drop to drink."
huxley Posted: Mar 12 2004, 12:04 PM
Wrathchild
Group: Members
Posts: 49
Member No.: 1,448
Joined: 21-November 03
damned what a bad night
--------------------
the good that men do is often interred with their bones but the evil that men do lives on
LooseCannon Posted: Mar 12 2004, 03:02 PM
Beast
Group: Historians
Posts: 963
Member No.: 283
Joined: 3-March 03
That's an interesting question you pose, both of them. Although I would have to go with 5 AM myself, for reasons already given.
As for the line Hallowed Be Thy Name, you have to watch the progression of the lyrics to fully understand this line. As the lyrics go from beginning to end, we have a prisoner who is completely overwhelmed by the fact that, come 5 o'clock, he will be having his neck stretched.
His belief in "never being an end" is sort of a Abrahamic view (That is, the school of religions encompassing Judaeism, Christianity, and Islam) with the belief of a heaven (or hell, I guess) where existence continues. He also makes a reference or two to his soul, which is not a predominantly Christian belief, but it is present.
Only his belief in the afterlife is what keeps this man calm as he is lead out. Two lines are interesting "If there's a God, why has He let me go". "Though the end is near I'm not sorry". The first line is definately anti-Jew/Christian/Muslim, at least. Althought this could be catagorized as the bitterness any condemned man must feel. The second line tells us that he is holding true to his actions, which brings up two suggestions:
1) This person is a hypocrite Jew/Christian/Muslim, who is unable to atone for his sins, but believes he will carry on in the favourable afterlife (although I will admit I am unsure of the structure of the Afterlife in the Islamic faith, I think it's pretty safe to assume we're talking about Christians here). This could be an outlash at the structure of religion, especially certain forms of Christianity, which teaches that salvation is beyond no one's grasp. Or we just could be dealing with an arrogant human. "Hallowed Be Thy Name" makes sense in this context as it is the prisoner's dying prayer, his attempt to gain salvation by providing the base ritual many Christians are indoctrinated with. Not that I am saying anything against the faith, but I believe that if the Christians are right then you can't gain their form of salvation just by saying Our Father every day.
2) This person ISN'T a Jew/Christian/Muslim, and is being persecuted for such. He is steadfast in his own beliefs (his belief that he will continue to exist) and his scream against God is a sarcastic shot at the men executing him in the name of faith. How can someone be Godly when they kill someone for being different? "Hallowed Be Thy Name" makes sense in this context as the condemned's last cry at his captors, turning the prayer into something part-sarcastic and part-reminding. If He is supposed to be gentle and forgiving, and you who execute me are trying to gain access to His plane of existence someday, how come you go against some of His basic tenents?
Okay, that's my take on it. Be aware, I have a tendancy to over analyze songs. There's a huge chance that Steve just thought it would reflect on the confused mind of a condemned man. Or that he picked the lyrics because they flow well together.
And now, if you will excuse me...
Oooohhh yeah.
This post has been edited by LooseCannon on Mar 12 2004, 03:02 PM
--------------------
When all has been layed to ruin
And burnination has forsaken the countryside
Only one guy will remain
My money's on TROGDOR!!!
Onhell Posted: Mar 12 2004, 07:41 PM
Phantom Of The Opera
Group: Members
Posts: 215
Member No.: 1,109
Joined: 26-September 03
Warn: (0%)
QUOTE (Atvarussmak @ Mar 12 2004, 10:36 AM)
Why he says hallowed by thy name. I could be he was saying the lords prayer just before he dies. Many heretics beleave in god, just not the cristian god.
If he says the lords prayer he believes in the Christian God, if not he wouldn't even know it. Something just hit me....This could be an inquisition hanging where the person is not sorry because he is not guilty (as were most if not all of the people who were hung/burnt by the inquisition). He wonders why God let's him go if he even exists because he is innocent. As for Hallowed be thy name.... In the movie The Crucible With Daniel Day Louis and Wynnona Rider, is based on the play of the same title by Arthur Miller. It tells the story of the Witch Trials in Salem Massachussetes in the 1600's and how people simply acused each other because they hated them for one reason or another, not because they were real witches. It was written in the 50's as a critic on McCarthy's Communist witch hunts in the U.S. However, in the Movie D.D.L's Character is going to be hung (at the end of the movie) and before they knock the stool from under him he begins to say the lords prayer and as he says "deliver us from evil...." BAM he disapears from the screen and all you see is the rope swinging back and forth...
The movie was made in 1996...however there have been various version in 1957, 1967 and 1980. There is one silent movie "the crucible" 1914 obviously not based on Miller's book. I believe this correlation with the movie is a coincidence (an eerie one) but still i felt compelled to mention it. and yes how can i forget.... OOOH YEEAH
This post has been edited by Onhell on Mar 12 2004, 07:41 PM
--------------------
"We eat Metal and shit chains"-Timmo Tolki
LooseCannon Posted: Mar 18 2004, 02:26 PM
Beast
Group: Historians
Posts: 963
Member No.: 283
Joined: 3-March 03
I thought they burned people during the inquisistion, Onhell. But, I could be wrong. Will check with Duke.
Otherwise, it's a very valid point, one I never really thought of.
--------------------
When all has been layed to ruin
And burnination has forsaken the countryside
Only one guy will remain
My money's on TROGDOR!!!
IronDuke Posted: Mar 18 2004, 06:05 PM
Wrathchild
Group: Historians
Posts: 40
Member No.: 1,259
Joined: 23-October 03
To clarify for LooseCannon et al:
(keep in mind I haven't read any of the posts on this thread yet)
During the inquisition, burning was the standard sentence given to those who quickly confessed to the "crimes" of which they were accused. It was, believe it or not, the most humane punishment offered to heretics, as the victim would usually suffocate from smoke inhalation well before the flames consumed their bodies. Compared to the alternatives, this was relatively painless.
Those who did not confess were not so lucky. The methods of torture varied, but some common ones were the rack (having limbs pulled to the point of seperation from the body), brandings, starvation, and even the iron maiden (hence the nameof the band we all adore!)
--][img src=\'style_emoticons/[#EMO_DIR#]/tongue.gif\' border=\'0\' style=\'vertical-align:middle\' alt=\'tongue.gif\' /][!--endemo--]
--][img src=\'style_emoticons/[#EMO_DIR#]/biggrin.gif\' border=\'0\' style=\'vertical-align:middle\' alt=\'biggrin.gif\' /][!--endemo--]
--][img src=\'style_emoticons/[#EMO_DIR#]/blush.gif\' border=\'0\' style=\'vertical-align:middle\' alt=\'blush.gif\' /][!--endemo--]