German History Thread

I

IronDuke

Ancient Mariner
Ok, here's the deal:

In one of my classes, we're re-eacting the Berlin Conference of 1885, in which Africa was divided amongst the European pwoers.

I need to build a case arguing Germany's case for colonies in Africa.

So far, most of what I have involves "Give us what we want or we're invading France again." and the old "we demand our place in the sun too" arguement.

They're solid, but do any other historicaly-inclined folks have some other stuff?

Any comments welcome, no matter how rediculous.
 
1. you could say they need them as part of their quest for Atlantis [!--emo&:D--][img src=\'style_emoticons/[#EMO_DIR#]/biggrin.gif\' border=\'0\' style=\'vertical-align:middle\' alt=\'biggrin.gif\' /][!--endemo--]
2. Nostradamus said you guys were going to have African Colonies [!--emo&:D--][img src=\'style_emoticons/[#EMO_DIR#]/biggrin.gif\' border=\'0\' style=\'vertical-align:middle\' alt=\'biggrin.gif\' /][!--endemo--]
3. um, you'll invade France again [!--emo&:(--][img src=\'style_emoticons/[#EMO_DIR#]/sad.gif\' border=\'0\' style=\'vertical-align:middle\' alt=\'sad.gif\' /][!--endemo--]
 
Historically, the reasons for Germany wanting colonies were:

-To gain political stability. Germany had been torn apart by inner quarrels since it has been founded. The colonies gave them the chance to became a nation in the minds of the people.
-To have an argument to build a war fleet.

However, you could argue:

-Germany was densely populated, so colonies could drown any threat of over-population
-Germany has always been relatively scarce on natural ressources (bar coal) and, since it is a rather small country, also of agricultural ground. Remember that East Africa alone was twice as big as Germany, so there's your point.

These are the two most valid points (in the view of imperialists), and I could imagine that those were the arguments Berlin actually gave back then.
 
So the debate was today.

Here's a rough outline of the notes I used:

[!--QuoteBegin--][div class=\'quotetop\']QUOTE[/div][div class=\'quotemain\'][!--QuoteEBegin--]Economic well-being: [span style=\'color:red\']The German economy is the backbone of Europe, therefore keeping it strong and viable, through colonies, is in everyone’s best interest. [/span]The economic depression had naturally led to a desire for tariffs and reinstatement of mercantile economies. For Germany to give up her claims in Africa would be economic suicide.
Unless Britain and France are willing to exclude German manufactures and agricultural products from their tariffs both at home and in their empires, Germany has no choice but to seek colonies of her own

Why should Germany be excluded from the benefits of such a system?  Germany has proven time and time again that are a great power like any other.

Balance of Power: If France is allowed to gain material wealth from colonies at the expense of the rest of Europe, she will become too powerful to defeat again. Imagine if another Napoleon Bonaparte were to gain power and have at his disposal the recourses of not just France, but half of Africa? Shouldn’t Germany be allowed to grow and expand at the same rate as France in order to act as a deterrent to future French aggression? [span style=\'color:red\']Equality among the great powers will ensure peace in our time.[/span]

Realpolitik: Germany is the strongest military power in Europe. If we don’t get new territory to control in Africa, we may be forced to look in Europe itself, which would be disastrous for the Balance of Power.
As a newly unified state, overseas colonies will help Germany foster patriotism at home as well as quell dissent, thus keeping Europe stable.
[span style=\'color:red\']Where would you prefer we deploy our vastly superior armies: In East Africa or on the Rhine?[/span] [/quote]

My side ended up kicking ass. We gaurenteed the neutralization of the Congo and Niger Rivers (as was actually done in 1885) But also the neutrality of the Nile and Suez Canal....don't ask me how we convinced them of that one.

We also demanded the territories of Togoland, Cameroon, Tanganyika, and German Southwest Africa (Namibia), all of which actually were German colonies. We also pressured the Portugese and Belgian delagations into giving us a wide strip of land in Angola and the Congo connecting Tanganyika and SW Africa.

We were in the worst possible position, and had no real justification for being in Africa, in my opinion, yet we got everything we wanted and then some.

Bismarck would have been proud.
 
I think the reason being that back then people REALLY understood German ideology and the threat they posed on the international stage, and today people are so detached from WWI and II that the same arguements got you, frankly impossible, impirialist booty. Me thinks anywho.
 
Germany needed to throw it's weight around. From what I remember of our course there was an arms race beginning to form, due to Africa, and because somebody needed to challenge Germany (France, particularly, hated the Germans because they lost land (Alcaise Lorainne?) and were kept from building an army for ages and prevented from colonising (e.g Morocco, Bismarck got very pissed off about that) whilst Germany occupied it).
 
[!--QuoteBegin-Onhell+Mar 11 2005, 02:27 PM--][div class=\'quotetop\']QUOTE(Onhell @ Mar 11 2005, 02:27 PM)[/div][div class=\'quotemain\'][!--QuoteEBegin--]I think the reason being that back then people REALLY understood German ideology and the threat they posed on the international stage, and today people are so detached from WWI and II that the same arguements got you, frankly impossible, impirialist booty. Me thinks anywho.
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Correct me if I'm wrong, but did you just imply that you think Germany still poses a threat to the stability of the world? From what I've seen, there isn't a more bleeding-heart liberal hippy tree-hugging vegan peacenik country out there. (Well, except for Sweden)

The 'German Problem,' which had been the focal point of European affairs since 1870, was solved in the 1950s when the BRD took its shape as a liberal democracy.

The real threats to stability and peace are China, Russia, North Korea, and the United States. Germany, and the rest of western Europe, has finally learned from its bloody past.
 
LOL yeah Duke, I think there is a misunderstanding. I thought your mock debate was a reenactment of something long ago, not concerning current politics and policies. right? if that is so I meant that people today have a hard time understanding past grudges policies and threats and that is why you won so easily.
 
[!--QuoteBegin-Onhell+Mar 12 2005, 06:33 PM--][div class=\'quotetop\']QUOTE(Onhell @ Mar 12 2005, 06:33 PM)[/div][div class=\'quotemain\'][!--QuoteEBegin--]LOL yeah Duke, I think there is a misunderstanding. I thought your mock debate was a reenactment of something long ago, not concerning current politics and policies. right? if that is so I meant that people today have a hard time understanding past grudges policies and threats and that is why you won so easily.
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I think that was my bad. I was a little (ok, alot) hungover when I wrote that.
 
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