Classical/Rock Hybrids Week on Maidenfans (Oct 5-11, 2009)

Which band shall we listen to next week?

  • Children Of Bodom (Perun)

    Votes: 1 50.0%
  • Alice Cooper (LC)

    Votes: 1 50.0%

  • Total voters
    2

SinisterMinisterX

Illuminatus
Staff member
It's time to talk about some classical/rock hybrids. And since Onhell's original nominee was Apocalyptica, someone should post about them. I can't, I don't really know their music.

TSO already got mentioned during Savatage Week, but they're the first group I think of. Oliva's music has always had a strong classical influence.

If we're talking about classical music influence in the composition/songwriting, then the best place to turn is the progressive music thread. I'm gonna make an epic post there soon.

For classical influence with metal, the first guy I think of is Yngwie. I wasn't a big fan of his Concerto album, but I like a lot of his earlier stuff.

On the other hand ... if we're talking about using orchestras with bands - or just some orchestral instruments - then the first band I think of is Kansas with Robbie Steinhardt on violin and a couple prog giants with flute: Genesis and Tull.

For a full orchestra with a band, I recall Metallica tried that and it was a big disappointment. Not the fault of Metallica, but rather the guy who wrote the orchestral parts. (His name escapes me at the moment - he was very famous, but dead now.) There was so much room for the orchestra to have been a full creative partner with Metallica, and the guy stuck to doubling the riffs on cello.

Alright Maidenfans, your turn... :bigsmile:
 
SinisterMinisterX said:
For classical influence with metal, the first guy I think of is Yngwie. I wasn't a big fan of his Concerto album, but I like a lot of his earlier stuff.
I was under the impression that he made two concerto albums. First the one in the 90's, and then a DVD was recorded with the Japan Philharmonic orchestra some years later which was also released as a live album.  :)

And yes, I am slightly disapponted that the week is over. I really, really enjoy some of Malmsteen's work. However, the album I thought was going to kick major ass (Perpetual flame, 2008) with Ripepr Owens, one of my all time favorite singers, turned out a disaster. NOt because of the songs but the production. Awful. Probably worse than Death Magnetic.  :P
 
Apocalyptica

This is WAY overdue. The band that inspired this topic was Apocalyptica and so I will start with them.

Apocalyptica originally started at Finland's Sibelius Academy when Eicca Toppinen, Paavo Lötjönen, Max Lilja, and Antero Manninen got together to play Metallica covers for shits and giggles. They began playing at small venues and obviously as it seems with every band that makes it a record exec was in the audience and signs them. While their first record was a Christmas EP, they really broke into the scene with their 1996 album "Plays Metallica by Four Cellos." That album, along with their follow-up, "Inquisition Symphony," were strictly a cello quartet. IS, included covers of other Metal bands like Pantera and Faith No More as well as three original pieces.

Their third effort, Cult was a great step forward in many ways. Several versions were released of this album. This was the first album of mainly original pieces as well as basic percussion, but still included 3 covers, 2 Metallica ones and a cover of The Hall of the Mountain King by Edvard Grieg. As I stated before this marked several changes in the band starting with the departure of Antero Maninen and the arrival of Pertu Kivilaasko. Antero is cited as leaving to persue his classical career. In this album the band begins to explore the sonic range of the cellos in distortion and aggression. The band also begins to toy with vocals releasing singles and rereleasing the album to include "vol.2" versions for "Path" and "Hope." Sandra Nasic from Guano Apes and Mathias Sayer from Farmer boys were asked to write lyrics for each song. Personally I think "Path vol. 2" is to date their best effort to include vocals.

Their next album, Reflections is a mix bag for me. It marks the departure of Max Lilja (few notes as to why, except wanting to form his own band). It does not feel as inspired as Cult did, but it is the first album to include full on drums, Dave Lombardo from Slayer appears on 5 tracks. Once again this album has several editions as one of their songs, "Faraway" was also turne into a "vol.2" with horrific lyrics by Linda Sundblad. It must be stated that all "vol.2" songs were originally instrumentals with the lyrics added later which lends to them, more often than not, having a disjointed fit with the song, they really do come across as an afterthought. The drum tracks are also added later to the original cello tracks and while not as often or as obvious as the vocals, they too tend to sound not quite in sync. While something that should only bother the pickiest of fans, those issues aside a step forward in what has at this point become a natural progression. Beginning strictly as a cello quartet, the now trio continues to expand and explore the arena of "cello rock."

Their 5th self-titled studio album is a HUGE leap forward in many respects. It is the first album in which the vocals and the drums are taken into account from the get go and the difference from reflections is astonishing. On "Life Burns" the Cellos literally sound like guitars, but thankfully it is the only song in which they do. Not that it is a bad thing, but as a purist friend of mine told me, "I want cellos to sound like cellos, if I wanted guitars I'd listen to Metallica." From an experimentation stand point I love it, but in moderation. A very dark album, but the band has finally found it's stride. Drummer Mikko Siren becomes an official member of the band after playing over 200 shows with the band.

"Worlds Collide" solidifies the steps taken in "Apocalyptica" and personally I think it is their best album to date. This is very debatible as the band has evolved so much. What does a fan like best? When they were strictly four cellos or now that they are a cello rock band? I find their progression natural and the change is welcomed as they don't remain stuck. Even though they remain a trio, former member Antero Maninen has lent his services since 2002 as a session musician in the studio and in live performances, always remaining in the background while the other three members jump around stage and headbang like few Metal bands can. He does not join band members during autograph sessions... really odd arrangement if you ask me.

They are set to release their 7th album, "7th Symphony," Aug 23rd of this year...
 
Therion

Therion is a very unique band in many respects. It began in 1987 as a death metal band named Blitzkrieg, then Megatherion and finally Therion in 1989. While the band has gone through MANY line-up changes the heart and soul of the band is Christopher Johnsson.

Johnsson is a self-taught musician, but more importantly a Neo-Pagan. He joined a neo-pagan order in 1991 established by Thomas Karlsson (more on him in a second.) Since joining Karlsson's cult Therion's music underwent interesting changes. Starting in the early 90's the band began experimenting with orchetrations, different vocals and musical styles gaining plenty of critical praise. Johnsson goes on to explain that while the band was loved by the critics and it was definitely great to have his work acknowledged, the album sales were just not there and so Therion's 1996 release was to be a big send off to recording music and he was going to focus on his record lable. Thus for "Theli" Johnsson went all out (for the time anyway), with opera choirs, ochestrations, epic/bombastic tracks (To Mega therion became the bands closing staple for live shows and to date a VERY good track
).

Ironically, what was to be Johnsson's goodbye to recording music begins to sell and the Lable talks him into touring and Therion's jump into Symphonic Metal is complete.

From 1996 on most of the lyrics are written by Thomas Karlsson. Karlsson is a Swedish ocultist and esoteric author and the lyrics he writes for Therion usually revolve around, what else, his cult. So yeah, Therion is religious pagan music. Now, not ALL the lyrics are about Karlsson's cult. He has written lyrics about other occult traditions found in Islam, Christianity, the ancient world etc. This is a theme that most of the band has gotten around and the few songs written by other members (like Son of the Sun by Kristian Niemann) are about religious figures/traditions FAR removed from the iron grip of "The Big Three"(Christianity, Judaism, Islam).

The band continued to explore and expand the symphonic realm and with Vovin (1998) they focused on mellower pieces centered more around the orchetrations. Deggial (2000) according to Johnsson was a return to roots type of record where there was more focus on a 1980s metal/rock writting. Deggial was unique in another respect. Therion has undergone TONS of line-up changes, but finally in 2000 their more stable line-up to date was formed. One can't really call it the "classic" line-up, but they come close to that as they remained togethre for 9 years. It was comprised of Johnsson on vocals and guitar, Kristian Niemann on lead guitar and his borther Johan on Bass, drummers have come and gone.

Each subsequent album ever since Theli has just been an ever growing experiment. After Secret of the Runes (2001) the band toured and after they were done realized they had too much material as they are a very productive bunch. The decision was made to releas Sirius B and Lemuria as a double CD package with a combination of "rockers" and symphonic pieces while saving the more "progressive" pieces for the follow up. Sirius B/Lemuria (2004) are brilliant albums with the band at their best with rockers like "Blood of Kingu" which also showcases death metal grunts by Johnsson as well as softer pieces like "Lemuria." The "progressive" follow up, "Gothic Kabbalah" (2007) was VERY different. A double CD seeing the band downsizing to two sopranos, two lead vocalists Mats Levin (who was also lead vocals on Serius B/Lemuria) and Snowy Shaw who has done A LOT of work in the rock/metal community. It's a difficult album to describe, but if you listened to the link above for "Mega Therion" and check out these two from Deggial (Via Nocturna Pts 1&2
and the one I mentioned before from Sirius B, Son of the Sun
and then listen from material from Gothic Kabbalah (The Perenial Sophia
) You will see the change. Interestingly enough the drummer, Petter Karlsson, has a hand in many of the songs for this album.

After Gothic Kabbalah Johnsson anounced that due to artisitic and direction differences in the band, they all decided to part ways amicably, but the "classic" line-up had one more album in them. "The Miskolc Experience"

The Miskolc Experiance is a live album in Miskolc, Hungary in which the band FINALLY plays with a full orchestra. It is an odd album in that the band has been a "symphonic" for over a decade, yet is doing what is now a cliche move by many other Metal bands which is to play with a full orchestra... or so it seems. In the booklet Johnsson explains that more often than not, when a metal/rock band plays with an orchestra the bands arrogance gets in the way of the orchestra being "disrespectful" to the orchestra and powering through the entire tracks. Essentially he says bands usually treat the orchestra like their bitch, and "rock out" for the sake of rocking out even when it is not needed. (Metallica's S&M came to mind...) Johnsson says that the Metal/Rock band has to be respectful of the orchestra and give it it's proper place and space and at times the best the band can play is... silence, with it's purpose being that of accentuating sections of the pieces.

With this in mind the first CD is classical pieces by Dvorak, Mozart, Verdi and Wagner played by the orchestra with the band as their "guests." The second CD is Therion pieces played with the full orchestra. I have to say I was not happy with the setlist, but after listening to it I can understand why Johnsson when with the particular pieces that made it on to the setlist, but I'm not 100% satisfied. To Mega Therion, the band's staple, would have been AMAZING to hear with the full orchestra and it was left out. I can think of other pieces, but oh well. All in all this one is for serious fans only.

The band is set to release their next album, "Sitra Ahra" later this year in September.
 
I would say that is there most accessible album and it definitely has my favortie songs on there in "To Mega Therion" and "Dark Side of Eden." Secrets of the Runes is yet to completely grow on me... that and Gothic Kabbalah are my least favorites, but I'll pop them in every now and then.  If Theli is the only one you own I recommend you get Serius B/Lemuria. I won't guarantee they'll floor you, but they are more in line with Theli and their earlier pre-symphonic sound and there is not one... actually there is only one track hehe that I would consider weak.
 
Rhapsody of Fire

Rhapsody of Fire was previously known simply as Rhapsody, but due to legal battles with Magic Circle Music (company formed by Manowar bassist, Joey Demaio), they changed their name and were in hiatus for a few years. What the battle consisted of it is not said.

Anyway, Rhapsody... Formed in Italy by Luca Turilli and Alex Staropoli the idea was to create an "epic" power metal band. Like other symphonic bands Rhapsody draws from classical pieces in their compositions and use orchestrations and choirs. What seperates them from the rest of the symphonic pack is that not only do they cite classical and metal artist as influences, but they give equal credit to film score composers like John Williams, Basil Poledouris and Hans Zimmer. In fact they have stated they are "hollywood metal," but nobody else, but the band has stated such.

The best way to describe Rhapsody's music is Lord of the Rings put to music. Turilli has created a fictional world called The Enchanted Lands populated by elves, unicorns, wizzards, dragons etc. The Enchanted Lands have been taken over by the evil king Kron and our lone hero, The Warrior of Ice sets forth to fight him and in his journy finds the Emerald Sword which will aid him in his quest. My bad, it sounds like a Zelda/Diablo/Lord of the Rings mash up, hahaha. Each of the first 5 albums is a chapter in the story beginning with The Legendary Tales and ending with The Power of the Dragonflame.

All 5 albums are really good with incredible musicianship, neoclassical solos, basic orchestration and opera choirs (most of the choirs are done by the band themselves. From the early works, the most "symphonic" in my opinion is their second effort, Symphony of Enchanted Lands where the interplay between classical elements and Metal are most prominent. (just take a lsiten to Dark Tower of the Abyss
) The other albums are more "metal," though they do build upon each other and personally I do think they get better as they go along. Their E.P, Rain of a Thousand Flames, is very prog and they cover Dvoraks 9th symphony, some say pretty well, Perun says attrociasly lol. All the albums have interlaid narration which is pretty cheesy, but it works and I don't think it is over done. Sometimes I feel like I'm listening to a radio play. The Saga of the Emerald Sword ends with Power of the Dragonflame with the very epic "Gargoyles, Angels of Darkness" clocking in a little over 19 minutes and this song has EVERYTHING. a flamenco guitar intro, great solos, cheesy narration... the works. But just because Kron has been defeated doesn't mean the creatures of the Enchanted Lands are safe! oh no!

Symphony of Enchated Lands II: The Dark Secret begins the new saga concerning a dark book, specifically the seven black books of king Nekron. It is not a sequel and it's relation to the first saga is not specified. in this story the seventh book is lost and it contains great powers of evil or something around those lines... to be honest I have not paid as much attention to this story as I did to the first. The new saga so far is made up of Symphony of Enchanted Lands II: The Dark Secret, Triumph or Agony and their recently released The Frozen Tears of Angels. None of them are worth writing home about. SoELII has it's moments like "Unholy Warcry" and "Sacred Power of Raging Winds" which a little past 5 min has an AMAZING instrumental section starting with a piano melody reminecent of The Exorcist/Halloween (showing off their hollywood influence) and it's followed by a great flute solo and then Turilli's "battle" with the orchestra... fucking awesome! (
)

The new saga has narration done by Christofer Lee (yes, THE Christofer "Count Duku" Lee), his daughter and other guests. Frankly I don't care for it and miss the narration style of the previous albums. SoELII also has the distinction of including a 70 piece orchestra. Triumph or Agony and the new album are nothing special compared to their previous work, but they are still enjoyable. I'd recommend starting with Power of the Dragonflame. My favorite thing to do, specially when having to do chores at home, is plugging my iPod in my stereo and play the first five albums and listening to the entire Emerald Sword Saga... Epic. Period.
 
Onhell said:
The best way to describe Rhapsody's music is Lord of the Rings put to music.

The new saga has narration done by Christofer Lee (yes, THE Christofer "Count Duku" Lee)

No, the best way to describe Rhapsody is complete, utter, unmitigated crap.
If my hard drive ran out of space and I had to start deleting music, Rhapsody would be among the first to go.

Now, I hate using the word "gay" to describe something. But there's no other precise way to say it: Rhapsody is the gayest band in a genre full of gay bands.
Onhell, both you and I appreciate the gayness of power metal, but Rhapsody just went way the fuck too far with it.

And you describe Lee as Dooku for the newbs?
FUCKING DRACULA, MOTHERFUCKER!
Dooku was a geriatric pantywaste.
 
I cannot argue with you, because even I cringe at some of their stuff (the narration in the last winged unicorn for instance), but (to me) most of their stuff is worth listening too. As for Lee... for me GARY OLDMAN is Dracula so yeah... Christofer Lee is that creepy cult leader from The Wicker Man lol.
 
Haggard

While their discography is very small (4 albums), Haggard is definitely a band worth exploring. Formed back in the early 90's in Germany as a death metal band they turned "symphonic" for the release of their first album, "And Thou Shalt Trust the Seer..." What separates Haggard from the previous bands mentioned is that their sound is more Medieval and the classical instrument performers have always been part of the band. At their height, the band numbered 21 members. Haggard has always done what Christofer Johnsson pointed out in, "The Miskolc Experiance," in that the core of the band, the heavy metal band, is used to accentuate the pieces and they juxtapose it perfectly with the softer Medieval/Classical components. This is best seen in these three pieces:

The Day Heaven Wept:

In a Pale Moon's Shadow:

Awakening the Centuries:

As stated before, Haggard's trademark so to speak is the interplay between the classical instruments and the metal musicians as well as the Soprano's voice and the Death Grunts. The Heavy Metal band accentuates pieces and when they grunt the piece is quick, heavy and "massive." when the Soprano sings the pieces slow down and it can be down right beatiful. Haggard uses original classical interludes between their longer pieces which, again, are very good, but on repeated listens are usually skipped (think the narration on Nightfall by BG).

Their first three albums are concept albums. "And Thou Shalt Trust... The Seer" is about the Medieval Inquisition, "Awakening the Centuries" is about Nostradamus and "Eppur Si Muove" about Galileo Galilei. The theme of course is individual struggle against blind faith, opression, progress, etc. Leave it to a Gothic-like band to write about "misunderstood" folks hahaha. Anyway, their latest effort, "Tales of Ithiria" breaks from the historical concept album and instead tells a fictional story.

A very original, mostly unknown band really worth checking out.

This is the last band in the Classical/Rock Hybrid genre I'll talk about. The reason being I consider the bands mentioned "The Big Four" (Personal Opinion!), because after them there are countless bands that do the death growl/soprano singer (Tristania, Sirenia, Epica), with little to no orchestrations or Celtic/Medieval Metal bands (In Extremo) or Haggard look-a-likes that just don't get it right. Hope this is a good starting guide.
 
cornfedhick said:
Ignorant peasants.  Two words: Bela. Fucking.  Lugosi. 

Yes, but we're talking about the definitive Lee role, not the definitive Dracula.

And if we were, you're still wrong. Christopher. Fucking. Lee. :P
 
Travis_AKA_fonzbear2000 said:
Dimmu Borgir's next album is going to have a full symphony orchestra. I can't wait!

Hopefully they do it well and not pull off a Metallica. I like the material I've heard from them, so I am curious as to how this would turn out.
 
Onhell said:
Hopefully they do it well and not pull off a Metallica. I like the material I've heard from them, so I am curious as to how this would turn out.
This is going to be different than Metallica since it will be a studio album and not a live performance with an orchestra. I can't wait for it!

Oh, speaking of classical, has anyone ever heard the piano and string quartet tributes to Maiden? Or The Hand Of Doom Orchestra plays Piece Of Mind? They're quite good!
 
I've been looking for those albums (the maiden tributes), but availability is sporadic, I might have to end up ordering them online or special order them from the record store. I've heard the stuff on you tube and yeah, really good indeed. I have similar tributes (string quartets) for Opeth, Tool and Avenged Sevenfold.
 
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