BLACK SABBATH DISCOGRAPHY RANKING GAME: #14 RIP TASTE
- Thread starter Mosh
- Start date
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15: Technical Ecstasy
16: Seventh Star
17: Cross Purposes (tie)
17: Thirteen (tie)
18: Never Say Die!
19: Forbidden
Total points: 89
highest score: 18 (@The_7th_one )
lowest score: 2 (@MrKnickerbocker )
Wow, what a day to be talking about Technical Ecstasy in the countdown. I definitely felt, given Ozzy's health, that one of these countdown posts would end up being a sort of tribute, although I didn't think it would be for what is easily my least favorite of the Ozzy era Sabbath albums. There's so much cocaine on this album that I feel like it would get confiscated at the airport. To my ears, the band is so dysfunctional and so lost directionally that it's hard to even make out what they were going for on this album, which is something that at the very least Never Say Die and Thirteen DON'T suffer from. There are so many missteps on this album. Bill Ward singing on the awful cocktail ballad It's Alright, the super out of place keyboards... I'm not against synthesizers in Sabbath, but it's just so out of place in pretty much every instance on this album. There are hardly any riffs and everybody just seems completely checked out, except Bill Ward who managed to sneak into the vocal booth for one of the most embarrassing cuts in the Sabbath catalog.
Sabbath is such an interesting band in this period. I think it's really cool how they experimented over the years, but you really get the sense that they didn't realize how innovative they truly were at the time. Some of these albums they are desperately chasing trends despite the fact that they were on the cutting edge of rock music and, evidently unknowingly, were influencing legions of bands to come. Obviously by the time Dio came on board they figured out that they were trailblazers and made appropriate music to match their image, but you get the sense on albums like Technical Ecstasy that they didn't see themselves as much more than a standard grade rock band.
The rating spread on this one was pretty large, I would love to hear from some of this album's vocal defenders as it did place quite high on a few lists, enough that it just managed to squeak out of the bottom 5. As I've mentioned before, I would take every already revealed album besides Forbidden over this one. To me, Forbidden is the only other Sabbath album where the band sounds more confused and all over the place.
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15: Technical Ecstasy
16: Seventh Star
17: Cross Purposes (tie)
17: Thirteen (tie)
18: Never Say Die!
19: Forbidden
Total points: 89
highest score: 18 (@The_7th_one )
lowest score: 2 (@MrKnickerbocker )
Wow, what a day to be talking about Technical Ecstasy in the countdown. I definitely felt, given Ozzy's health, that one of these countdown posts would end up being a sort of tribute, although I didn't think it would be for what is easily my least favorite of the Ozzy era Sabbath albums. There's so much cocaine on this album that I feel like it would get confiscated at the airport. To my ears, the band is so dysfunctional and so lost directionally that it's hard to even make out what they were going for on this album, which is something that at the very least Never Say Die and Thirteen DON'T suffer from. There are so many missteps on this album. Bill Ward singing on the awful cocktail ballad It's Alright, the super out of place keyboards... I'm not against synthesizers in Sabbath, but it's just so out of place in pretty much every instance on this album. There are hardly any riffs and everybody just seems completely checked out, except Bill Ward who managed to sneak into the vocal booth for one of the most embarrassing cuts in the Sabbath catalog.
Sabbath is such an interesting band in this period. I think it's really cool how they experimented over the years, but you really get the sense that they didn't realize how innovative they truly were at the time. Some of these albums they are desperately chasing trends despite the fact that they were on the cutting edge of rock music and, evidently unknowingly, were influencing legions of bands to come. Obviously by the time Dio came on board they figured out that they were trailblazers and made appropriate music to match their image, but you get the sense on albums like Technical Ecstasy that they didn't see themselves as much more than a standard grade rock band.
The rating spread on this one was pretty large, I would love to hear from some of this album's vocal defenders as it did place quite high on a few lists, enough that it just managed to squeak out of the bottom 5. As I've mentioned before, I would take every already revealed album besides Forbidden over this one. To me, Forbidden is the only other Sabbath album where the band sounds more confused and all over the place.
MrKnickerbocker
clap hands
It’s a sad day to be reflecting on such a poor album, but “it is what it is innit.”
There is not a single great song here. I don’t think there’s even a single good song here.
There is not a single great song here. I don’t think there’s even a single good song here.
KidInTheDark666
What's yours is mine and what's mine is mine too
You Won't Change Me and Dirty Women are both killer. I like Gypsy and All Moving Parts as well. The rest isn't good and I still give this album a pretty low ranking.
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14: Born Again
15: Technical Ecstasy
16: Seventh Star
17: Cross Purposes (tie)
17: Thirteen (tie)
18: Never Say Die!
19: Forbidden
Total points: 94
highest score: 20 (@KidInTheDark666)
lowest score: 1 (@Night Prowler @Diesel 11 @Poto)
Born Again is the first and only album to be both #1 on a list and #20 on a list! I have to say, normally I think these lists shake out more or less how I expect them to or how I believe they should go, but this one landed way outside where it belongs from my perspective. I don't care what Bruce Dickinson says, this album is frankly in the conversation for the worst of all time by a major rock band. This album is just loaded with missteps, from the production, to the cover, to the stonehenge worship, to the selection of Gillan as a vocalist. On the face of it, a sort of Sabbath/Purple fusion makes sense to the extent that both bands existed close together and members of each had participated in projects together before, but stylistically I just think the two bands are so incongruent. When I think Purple, I think bluesy keyboard driven riffs with a heavy neoclassical element and a level of virtuosity, like a boogie bar band made up of top tier musicians and a very showy vocalist. When I think Sabbath, I think grimy slow riffing, occult lyrics, and more cerebral music in general. Born Again definitely leans into the Deep Purple side more, but in general I feel like this project just brought out the worst in both sides. Gillan's lyrics are such a drop from what Dio and Butler before him were contributing. Songs like Trashed and Digital Bitch are just cringeworthy, and Gillan sounds like a drunk who is past his prime on these songs. The riffing is decent at times, but there are never moments where Iommi's riffs drive the song the way they did in the Dio and Ozzy eras. The band's knack for progressive moments is pretty much gone.
This is one of those albums with a storied production and I think the fact that Gillan worked separately from the rest of the group shows. Nothing on this album gels. There was some chat about whether Seventh Star qualifies as a Sabbath album which is something that I never really considered seriously, especially because Born Again was basically the same situation of an album made as a different project and then released as Sabbath (the right call imo). I will also say that Seventh Star undoubtedly feels more like a Sabbath album than Born Again.
I usually try to not be too opinionated in these posts, but man this might be the best performance by a bad album that we've seen in one of these games. So here's the interesting statistical thing. If you take out KidIntheDark's outlier ranking, Born Again actually still does pretty good. It still beats Never Say Die, Cross Purposes, Forbidden, but narrowly loses to Technical Ecstasy, Thirteen, and Seventh Star. There were a surprising number of high rankings for this album which helped keep it out of serious danger of coming in last or even close to last.
I dunno, I'm curious to see some discussion for this one as I don't find a lot of redeemable qualities here. Personally, I only ranked Forbidden lower. I always find it interesting when black sheep albums get retroactive reappraisal. Sabbath is an interesting case because they have such a big discography, but I find it genuinely baffling that this is the album that people are warming up to. Even within the bottom six, I think there is more interesting material found on most of the other albums that were previously discussed.
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3:
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5:
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7:
8:
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10:
11:
12:
13:
14: Born Again
15: Technical Ecstasy
16: Seventh Star
17: Cross Purposes (tie)
17: Thirteen (tie)
18: Never Say Die!
19: Forbidden
Total points: 94
highest score: 20 (@KidInTheDark666)
lowest score: 1 (@Night Prowler @Diesel 11 @Poto)
Born Again is the first and only album to be both #1 on a list and #20 on a list! I have to say, normally I think these lists shake out more or less how I expect them to or how I believe they should go, but this one landed way outside where it belongs from my perspective. I don't care what Bruce Dickinson says, this album is frankly in the conversation for the worst of all time by a major rock band. This album is just loaded with missteps, from the production, to the cover, to the stonehenge worship, to the selection of Gillan as a vocalist. On the face of it, a sort of Sabbath/Purple fusion makes sense to the extent that both bands existed close together and members of each had participated in projects together before, but stylistically I just think the two bands are so incongruent. When I think Purple, I think bluesy keyboard driven riffs with a heavy neoclassical element and a level of virtuosity, like a boogie bar band made up of top tier musicians and a very showy vocalist. When I think Sabbath, I think grimy slow riffing, occult lyrics, and more cerebral music in general. Born Again definitely leans into the Deep Purple side more, but in general I feel like this project just brought out the worst in both sides. Gillan's lyrics are such a drop from what Dio and Butler before him were contributing. Songs like Trashed and Digital Bitch are just cringeworthy, and Gillan sounds like a drunk who is past his prime on these songs. The riffing is decent at times, but there are never moments where Iommi's riffs drive the song the way they did in the Dio and Ozzy eras. The band's knack for progressive moments is pretty much gone.
This is one of those albums with a storied production and I think the fact that Gillan worked separately from the rest of the group shows. Nothing on this album gels. There was some chat about whether Seventh Star qualifies as a Sabbath album which is something that I never really considered seriously, especially because Born Again was basically the same situation of an album made as a different project and then released as Sabbath (the right call imo). I will also say that Seventh Star undoubtedly feels more like a Sabbath album than Born Again.
I usually try to not be too opinionated in these posts, but man this might be the best performance by a bad album that we've seen in one of these games. So here's the interesting statistical thing. If you take out KidIntheDark's outlier ranking, Born Again actually still does pretty good. It still beats Never Say Die, Cross Purposes, Forbidden, but narrowly loses to Technical Ecstasy, Thirteen, and Seventh Star. There were a surprising number of high rankings for this album which helped keep it out of serious danger of coming in last or even close to last.
I dunno, I'm curious to see some discussion for this one as I don't find a lot of redeemable qualities here. Personally, I only ranked Forbidden lower. I always find it interesting when black sheep albums get retroactive reappraisal. Sabbath is an interesting case because they have such a big discography, but I find it genuinely baffling that this is the album that people are warming up to. Even within the bottom six, I think there is more interesting material found on most of the other albums that were previously discussed.
MrKnickerbocker
clap hands
I ranked Born Again higher than Never Say Die, Cross Purposes, Technical Ecstasy and Forbidden for one reason only: it's interesting. I will agree that it is bad, but I think all five albums just mentioned are equally very bad. The difference being that the weird tension and stylistic changes that Gillan introduces lead to something that is at least intriguing from a historical perspective. Those other albums are bad and boring.
Diesel 11
As you scream into the web of silence...
Not only that, but wasn't this the case with Heaven and Hell as well? Iommi started writing music with Dio and they ended up calling it a Black Sabbath album just because they already had that established name.
Side thought (I don't have much to say about Born Again that Mosh hasn't already said and I haven't already written about, tldr it fucking sucks): it's going to be interesting to see which 'classic' Sabbath record ends up being the lowest-ranked one, and how much higher non-classic albums are in comparison. From my perspective, Sabbath have about 8 classics, the debut through Sabotage and the first two albums with Dio. If I had to guess I'd put my money on the debut being the lowest one here, and I feel like we'll see Headless Cross, Dehumanizer, and The Devil You Know get higher slots than it (and maybe Vol. 4, too). This forum having both a large number of Ozzy fans as well as an even more vocal swath of Dio fans means that anything could happen and that's super interesting.
Although Cross Purposes being ranked below Born Again is a fucking travesty.
This happened with a lot of rock bands back then, Yes is another popular example of a defunct band that decided to revive the name thanks to the record label. I imagine at the time there was a sort of mentality of letting a band run its course for a decade or so and then breaking off and doing other side projects, since the idea of a band as a long term project didn't really exist yet, but record labels probably saw the value in extending the life of a band even if it meant bringing in a bunch of new members. In my opinion, hindsight 20/20, letting the Sabbath name go wherever Iommi went was the right call and I don't really question the validity of any of these as Sabbath albums (+ The Devil You Know which should have been called a Black Sabbath album).
I think we need to start seriously considering either The Eternal Idol or Headless Cross as part of the "classic" Sabbath canon. Those albums have had pretty remarkable staying power all things considered.
Diesel 11
As you scream into the web of silence...
Tyr too. I think in any just world Tony Martin's stint with Sabbath would've been considered just as important as the Ozzy and Dio eras. I don't think the perception is there yet, firstly the 'official band' (thanks to internal politics) is just the Ozzy period, with the Dio legacy bumping up his records in spite of what Sharon et al wants. The new remasters are a strong step in the right direction, but right now these seem like positive underdog records as opposed to stone cold classics that everyone knows. But I hope it changes for the better, Headless Cross is my favorite Sabbath album and Tyr is either my #3 or #4.
I like Zero the Hero. Everything else on the album I'm not a huge fan of.
Confeos
Game time started.
Yes, the cover sucks. Yes, the production is horrendous. The songs are mostly fine - side A with "Trashed", "Zero the Hero" and my personal favourite "Disturbing the Priest" is definitely stronger than side B. "Digital Bitch" is easily the worst song, while the title track shows promise, but never really delivers. I still hear quite a lot of the Sabbath DNA on this, even if it's clear that Gillan didn't care one bit what band he was in, and writes and performs exactly like he was still singing for Deep Purple.
Overall, I think the ranking is quite fair.
Overall, I think the ranking is quite fair.