BEST BAND EVER: Results!

CriedWhenBrucieLeft said:
Foro, how is Schaffer any better as a riff maker than, say, Dave Mustaine?
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I have never wished to to analyze Mustaine because I dislike Megadeth. But I sure have heard enough to realize that they are different.

And yes, I have dared to criticize Rhoads, trying to do that in a polite manner. I can also say the man played on one good tune and is completely overrated, because he died young. Better?
 
I agree with you in respect to RR. I'm just saying, I listen to Schaffer & I'm not hearing anything particularly amazing from a rhythm perspective (which you highlighted as "monumental"). I'm not saying I think Mustaine is fantastic, but his rhythm work (for comparison) is as good as Schaffer's.
 
Forostar said:
What is generic about his riffs? Who played like him and did it earlier?
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Maiden, Metallica, Megadeth, to name a few.

FFS you are going to lenghts here. Belittling Rhoads, quoting magazines that crown Hammet as top dog.
Mustaine is not just different to Schaffer, he's straight out better.

Schaffer can't do leads, I don't put Iced Earth in top league cause their solos are not on par and their instrumental parts are not on par with the others I put there.

Foro you sure have an unpopular opinion based on a weird methodology. Can I ask you why you think you can force Schaffer over Mustaine while not "analyzing" Megadeth? Just spin 10-15 minutes of deth's Wembley 1990 show, then tell me where exactly in IE do you find better rhythm guitar than this.
 
It is how Schaffer's rhythm work appeals to me in combination with his songwriting. This band made dozens of awesome metal songs and there was a time when people realized that out here. Maybe they still do but fail to take that into account in this game. Just realize how important Schaffer's guitar role is in all this.

It is not just how the riffs are constructed in the songs. The riffs totally drive the material and lift it up to a high level. "Sure that goes for Dave and Megadeth too", I hear you think. But do you really think they sound a like?

I am not sure if anyone could objectively argue that one is doing it better than the other, but surely Schaffer's riffs stand on their own. Possibly technically, but since Iced Earth's feel and colour of their music differs from Megadeth's, so do the riffs. Perhaps a Rolling Stones critic would think it's all the same though. ;)

I could play you the whole Alive in Athens album and go: "Check out this awesome riff" non-stop. And at the same time, I like the Maidenesque unexpectedness of the songs. Schaffer certainly realized what Maiden was doing: songs with lots of time and tempo changes plus a good sense for melody. Without wanting to sound like Maiden, he certainly used these ingredients. He added his own main ingredient: the riffs. It is not just how tight these riffs are (and how fast: Jon Schaffer can produce more notes in one minute of sole downpicking than Dave can in a lifetime), they are totally grabbing. Catchy riffs. GALLOPING riffs.


Since I am not the best in describing guitar playing I looked for others and found this, if interested:

Jon Schaffer, that dude is so intricate and technical and he's got a great, crushing tone with really tight palm mutes. his acoustic songs are also really good, he almost always uses a 12-string guitar on them, and it sounds awesome. check out Iced Earth-
The Coming Curse(very intricate and inventive main riff)
Desert Rain
Melancholy(Holy Martyr)
Watching Over Me(to get an idea on how well he balances crushing tone with quiet acoustic chords)
Dante's Inferno(very technical, very difficult song to play, 16 minutes long with lots of rhythm changes and technical riffs)

and of course Demons and Wizards- Fiddler on the Green(masterpiece) and Dorian(great riffs in this one).
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To call this generic: that's preposterous.
 
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Maybe this is just me, but having grown up listening & learning to play Megadeth & Metallica guitar parts in particular, I don't find "tight palm mutes" that difficult. To be honest it's an easy way to sound Metal. There's nothing here that interesting Foro. Don't get me wrong, if you like this it's good. But come on, there are dozens of metal rhythm guitarists who play like this.
 
CriedWhenBrucieLeft said:
But come on, there are dozens of metal rhythm guitarists who play like this.
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I seriously do not think that this is true.
A: they do not play the same (Schaffer is not generic)
B: not that good
C: not on such good music as (once) loved on this Maidenfans forum and by metal and Maiden fans in general.

Tell me, show me. It also would give me a good insight into what you like (and know) about metal bands. That insight is rare (mostly you do not show interest in metal bands), so let's have it.
 
Pt. A: I didn't say Schaffer was "generic" (Mosh did).
Pt. B: Totally subjective. I'm not getting into a discussion of who's "better". I never said Schaffer isn't to my taste.
Pt. C: Never seen anyone specifically mention Schaffer on this forum. Are IE well thought of? I'll need to take your word for it.

Lastly, I ain't making a list for you. I'm just saying this style of rhythm guitar playing is hardly uncommon. And, further, Schaffer doesn't appear to be a stellar example of it. I only named-dropped Mustaine as, like him or not, his riff work is a good example of a pretty similar playing style; heavy use of palm-mutes, melodic elements, etc. I'm talking guitar style/technique here, not the overall sound of Megadeth vs. IE.
 
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I never said you did say that Cried (generic, although I can read it between your lines as well). But that comment led me to his "defense" and later Mustaine came along.

I am genuinely interested in comparable guitar style and technique but my case has also been about the riffs he constructed. The output. Perhaps many people use a certain technique, I do not think dozens have written so many appealing riffs and songs, and I well, basically, see previous posts. Yes that is subjective, but so is everything out here. E.g.:
CriedWhenBrucieLeft said:
And, further, Schaffer doesn't appear to be a stellar example of it.
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(?)
I do not see the beginning of a basis for this statement. Have you heard how well the man plays, live?

Yes, there was a time when Iced Earth was the most cherished band out here. Next to Maiden of course. 75 pages. At some point Schaffer changed (became about as annoying as Mustaine) and the quality of the music went down as well. Nowadays, Dream Theater is very much the most talked of band.
 
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I just think you're overstating the case for Schaffer being an amazing riff writer; your original point. His riffs don't sound that incredible. And his style absolutely does not stand out amongst other rhythm guitarist. If part of your point is simply that he's not discussed much & possibly underrated; fine, I totally except that point.
 
I admit in advance that I'm not really IE/Schaffer expert myself, but I also never really felt the need to be. I heard about 3 or 4 albums (Offerings, Saga, Wicked (the first one) and Crucible) and my main problem is that it's too unmemorable for me. Including guitar. As far as riff writing goes, I prefer Iommi, Blackmore, Mustaine, Hetfield... even Dimebag (though he's overrated as well IMHO).

Also, Trucci does some killer riffs himself, I'm not talking about originality, but this is the stuff I'd like to play if I wanted to play metal.




This is also cool, though it's Tullica rip off


And Romeo of course


That's the kind of stuff I have trouble getting out of my head. I have tried out Dark Saga about 10 times already in the past and I can't remember pretty much anything. But maybe that's my problem. Anyway, I voted against him, because he failed to catch my attention.
 
I actually think riffs sometimes belie a real lack of any other qualities in some bands/guitarists. The DT examples you give are good examples of catchy heavy riffs. Point is, from a guitarists point of view, you know JP has another couple of levels in terms of playing he can turn to; and that's why DT are more than riffs. Maiden, for me, are a great example of a band who's songs don't hang together on riffs.
JudasMyGuide said:
As far as riff writing goes, I prefer Iommi, Blackmore, Mustaine, Hetfield... even Dimebag (though he's overrated as well IMHO).
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Dimebag is great riff writer.
JudasMyGuide said:
Anyway, I voted against him, because he failed to catch my attention.
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I think it's pretty hard to be a Metal act & expect to write only riff-driven music and not have a whiff of generic about you. It is generic for your whole rhythm section to be based around a guy palm-muting his way around power-chords. And quite a lot of this type of playing is unmemorable. If you were doing this before everyone else you might escape that accusation; but everyone else is on shaky ground in terms of breaking new ground &/or being original playing like this. Yeh, it's still cool sounding; but it's not original & there are lots of guitar players doing the same thing as you.
 
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CriedWhenBrucieLeft said:
I actually think riffs sometimes belie a real lack of any other qualities in some bands/guitarists.
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This is a big factor for me. My favorite riff writer in Metal is probably Mikael Akerfeldt. His riffs are catchy, sometimes intricate, and abnormally melodic while remaining intensely heavy. That being said, the riffs are only one dimension of his playing. There's also his lyrical lead guitar style, his beautiful acoustic work, and his ability to put all those things in the melting pot and make it stay coherent (although I'm trying to leave general songwriting/arranging skills out of this game as I'm trying to judge the guitarists purely on guitar playing). Schaffer, on the other hand, only has riffs, and not very good ones at that.

Maybe generic is the wrong term, maybe his riffs weren't so generic at first but I'd say they got generic and stale long before any other aspect of IE did. In fact, the riffs are among the major barriers that keep me from enjoying much of Iced Earth's later output. His riffs constantly use the same rhythms (eighth note followed by a sixteenth note triplet, or the "dundala-dundala" rhythm), they have the same tone, and I just don't find any of it exciting. He's a pretty good rhythm guitarist, but being able to play in time with proper articulation (e.g. the palm mute thing) should be the bare minimum of a good guitarist. We've reached the point in the game where all the guitarists on the chopping block have those qualities.

Also, for the record, I'll take a Petrucci riff over a Schaffer riff any day but I'd say that even Petrucci's riffs are not among his stronger qualities as a guitarist. The Glass Prison is probably his peak as a riff writer though. I'm putting a lot of value into variety in a player for this game though and Petrucci has so much else going for him that makes him my favorite guitarist.
 
Exactly. Schaffer is a very tight player, but his riff writing ability is incredibly one-dimensional and repetitive, and that's his best quality as a guitarist. He can't solo, he doesn't write consistently great songs, he does nothing innovative. He is simply outclassed by the other people in this game.
 
What if a guitarist is so good at one skill that it overshadows his all other qualities? I mean, most people say that Jimi Hendrix is one of the best guitarists ever (and I would agree), but he was all about soloing and no riffs or rhythm. Say it were the exact opposite with Schaffer, why isn't he on one level with Hendrix then?
 
Perun said:
What if a guitarist is so good at one skill that it overshadows his all other qualities? I mean, most people say that Jimi Hendrix is one of the best guitarists ever (and I would agree), but he was all about soloing and no riffs or rhythm. Say it were the exact opposite with Schaffer, why isn't he on one level with Hendrix then?
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I would argue that they are on the same level as far as only having one skill - hence why I voted for both of them. They're one-dimensional.
 
Perun said:
What if a guitarist is so good at one skill that it overshadows his all other qualities? I mean, most people say that Jimi Hendrix is one of the best guitarists ever (and I would agree), but he was all about soloing and no riffs or rhythm. Say it were the exact opposite with Schaffer, why isn't he on one level with Hendrix then?
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Dunno, I'm voting Hendrix for more or less the same reasons, so I guess you make a good point there.

Edit: Knick beat me to it.
 
Mosh said:
...they have the same tone, and I just don't find any of it exciting.
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This reminds me a two things I was thinking about lately in respect to guitar playing. One was something I mentioned in the Satch thread; namely that Satriani's lead tone was fixed quite early (a great tone) but it has barely changed. So when a lead section comes in everything sounds kind of similar. And this is a big obstacle to me really enjoying his discography.

The other was something I read that Paul Gilbert said:
For many years, I was inspired to play guitar like a harpsichord… very fast, very accurately, and with nearly every note being the same volume and tone. I wanted to be sort of a “perfect note factory,” with every note being the same.
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I read this & everything I think about Gilbert suddenly became a little clearer. I love his playing, but there's something strangely lifeless about some of it; something instantly gratifying, but not really so rewarding on repeat listening. And this quote sort of explains why. Not nuanced enough, too perfect. Again, a huge obstacle to me really enjoying his discography.
 
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Dynamics are really important and a lot of people overlook them. Speed is great, volume is great, tone is great, but if you have no dynamics in your playing then you lose emotional resonance. I agree about Satriani's stagnant tone, but his dynamics are incredible. The same can be said of Petrucci, especially in the early years. I would say dynamics in playing (not just leads) is one of Petrucci's biggest strengths.
 
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