Another touchy subject

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Well, we've had religion, we've had abortion... time for another touchy subject [!--emo&:P--][img src=\'style_emoticons/[#EMO_DIR#]/tongue.gif\' border=\'0\' style=\'vertical-align:middle\' alt=\'tongue.gif\' /][!--endemo--]. I'm glad to see the people here on this board do their best to avoid flame wars or bad-blooded aggressive arguments.

Many years ago, I saw an episode of South Park in which the grandfather of one of the boys (Stan I think) asked his grandson to kill him. Stan was not sure if he should do it and asked for help. Everybody he asked about it, including Jesus, said he wouldn't touch the subject with a pincer (I don't know if that was the exact wording in English, as I saw the episode in German).

That was very funny, but is very close to the truth. Some other time, I was at an info meeting of the youth organization of a small political party together with a friend of mine, and he asked the people there precisely that question. Their blank stare suggested that they wouldn't touch the subject with a pincer, and after some time of consideration, they answered "we don't have an opinion towards that".

So.... no escaping here... what do you say? Are you pro or anti euthanasia? Discuss!


A note to all German-speakers: In English, the term "euthanasia" is the correct translation for "Sterbehilfe", and it does not have the negative taint of the German "Euthanasie".
 
A person's life is his own. He (or she) can do whatever he wants with it. If someone is in so much agony that they are actually considering ending their life, then I think it's the humane thing to do. Quality of life is important, remember. If a dog is so badly injured that he can't walk, or is in incurable pain, we don't hesitate to take him to the veternarian and do the "humane" thing. In other words, I think there's a difference between "living" and "being alive."

I'm not suggesting, however, that it's right for human beings to make such a decision for other human beings. As humans, we have the ability to comprehend the implications of such a choice (all metaphysical and religious beliefs about the afterlife notwithstanding). but it is one which only should be made for oneself.
 
This goes back into the Terry Schiavo debate just past us. I'm in favour of some forms of euthanasia, like the Duke said. People should have the right to end their own lives when they are in extreme & uncurable physical agony. Do I think that we have the right to euthanise people who are in extended vegetative states? More difficult. Obviously if the person has a living will, then their will should be followed. Otherwise, it becomes a far more sticky situation.

If there is a reasonable hope that the person might recover, according to informed medical opinion, then we should attempt to keep the person alive, till the diagnosis changes. If someone's brain is mush, then that person should be let to die.
 
My opinion is that if the person has a BAD illness and he WISHES to die, he should be given the right to.

If the person has no concience, and for example is a vegetable, I think that his or her family should have the right to decide if they keep him "alive" or not....
 
I'm absolutely pro euthanasia. Why would a vegetable be kept alive? First of all, you should refer to "one" of Mettalica. If they can't talk, or communicate, it doesen't mean they don't feel the pain. I thouhgt the parents in the Schiavo case were ass-holes. The only reason they wanted their daughter allive is that they would feel comfortable with themselves, having their daughter "alive". That, my friends, wasn't life.
 
[!--QuoteBegin-IronDuke+Sep 24 2005, 12:06 AM--][div class=\'quotetop\']QUOTE(IronDuke @ Sep 24 2005, 12:06 AM)[/div][div class=\'quotemain\'][!--QuoteEBegin--]A person's life is his own. He (or she) can do whatever he wants with it. If someone is in so much agony that they are actually considering ending their life, then I think it's the humane thing to do. Quality of life is important, remember. If a dog is so badly injured that he can't walk, or is in incurable pain, we don't hesitate to take him to the veternarian and do the "humane" thing. In other words, I think there's a difference between "living" and "being alive."

I'm not suggesting, however, that it's right for human beings to make such a decision for other human beings. As humans, we have the ability to comprehend the implications of such a choice (all metaphysical and religious beliefs about the afterlife notwithstanding). but it is one which only should be made for oneself.
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Well said. I completley agree
 
Since there are so many "pro" Euthanatia people I had to jump in. I am not going to pull the "God" arguement against it because it would be too easy. I simply think that people that commit suicide, or ask for assisted-suicide or whatever are cowards. That's right, I said it, Pussies that can't handle what's happened to them regardless of it being their fault or not. That is what modernity has created, a whole bunch of pussies that want everything at a push of a button including death. Pathetic.
Flame away [!--emo&:)--][img src=\'style_emoticons/[#EMO_DIR#]/smile.gif\' border=\'0\' style=\'vertical-align:middle\' alt=\'smile.gif\' /][!--endemo--]
 
Go through unusual and unexpected hardships in life and you may begin to understand that some people are desperate enough to end their suffering by ending their lifes. As you most probably haven't -- well I hope so for you! -- I see your point, although I don't agree with it.

Suicide isn't necessarily cowardice. It takes a brave person -- or desperate enough -- to end life.
 
[!--QuoteBegin-Onhell+Sep 27 2005, 07:10 PM--][div class=\'quotetop\']QUOTE(Onhell @ Sep 27 2005, 07:10 PM)[/div][div class=\'quotemain\'][!--QuoteEBegin--]Since there are so many "pro" Euthanatia people I had to jump in. I am not going to pull the "God" arguement against it because it would be too easy. I simply think that people that commit suicide, or ask for assisted-suicide or whatever are cowards. That's right, I said it, Pussies that can't handle what's happened to them regardless of it being their fault or not. That is what modernity has created, a whole bunch of pussies that want everything at a push of a button including death. Pathetic.
Flame away [!--emo&:)--][img src=\'style_emoticons/[#EMO_DIR#]/smile.gif\' border=\'0\' style=\'vertical-align:middle\' alt=\'smile.gif\' /][!--endemo--]
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Good view, remember "but that's the easy way, that's the selfish way, the hardest part is to get on with your life". I do agree that suicide is selfish and cowardly but people seem to kill themselves over anything, even kill themselves over the fact that they have no cheap ass reason to end their life in the first place. Okay, that's a silly example but you get the idea. So I ain't gonna flame you, sure some might see your view as cold but life is not always a bed of roses is it now? I was taking a look in my religion school book about suicide and it said that it was a selfish act and embraces self destruction instead of self respect, but then it said the page after that that we shouldn't judge those who commit suicide but it just stated that it was wrong. What a funny ol' contradicton...
 
I didn't think I'd reply in this thread but now that it has shifted...

No, we shouldn't condemn anyone because they want to end their life. I may happen to want to do it at times but then again, I always remind my erratic mind that there's a little person who needs me. But what about those who feel they have noone left who needs them?
 
[!--QuoteBegin-charlotte+Sep 27 2005, 08:07 PM--][div class=\'quotetop\']QUOTE(charlotte @ Sep 27 2005, 08:07 PM)[/div][div class=\'quotemain\'][!--QuoteEBegin--] But what about those who feel they have noone left who needs them?
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You never know how many lives you touch. I think all the time that I'm just passing through life with no real impact, then I went back to my old highschool, where I thought I was a ghost and people came up to me all the time asking where I had gone, and why did I just disapear. That's what made me realized, you never go unnoticed, you always influence people (positively or negatively that's up to them.) That's why people that kill themselves have low-self esteem, they don't realize they do matter. That and there is nothing worth killing yourserlf over.
 
That is an interesting thought, Onhell.

Fact is, as soon as you go out your front door, you are touching people. In the city I live near, there is a man who always walks around or sits on steps. He is probably jobless, and obviously completely insane. He hasn't been to the barber in years, and he is wearing the same clothes every day, year in and year out. I think he has been wandering the city ever since I live here, which makes it about ten years. His smell and looks suggest he isn't washing himself very often. He is probably not homeless, and he seems to have some sort of income (probably state welfare), as he usually carries some food he bought (usually cheese) with him; I also once saw him buy a CD at a record store I frequent.
I don't think he has any friends, or any social contact at all.

Still, everybody here knows him, as he is a very notorious person, beginning with the way he looks. It may be going too far to say anybody would miss him if he were dead, but I am pretty sure there will be people, including me, who would notice his missing and think "Hm... where has he gone?". In that way, he has already touched some people, in a minor and definitely unimportant way, yet he has. People already dedicate some thoughts on him. I am dedicating bandwith to him right now (and work time, but let's not mention that [!--emo&:P--][img src=\'style_emoticons/[#EMO_DIR#]/tongue.gif\' border=\'0\' style=\'vertical-align:middle\' alt=\'tongue.gif\' /][!--endemo--]). You are reading about him. He doesn't know it, of course. But he is there in some people's minds.

If we're going to the other extreme, people who never even heard of each other can affect each other, sometimes even their fates can closely hang together, yet they have never, ever had anything to do with each other in any other way. Simple example: I go out and buy a Persian carpet. This carpet was hand-made by a family mother somewhere in rural Iran. Let's say the father is dead, and the mother has three children to raise. She has absolutely no income other than weaving carpets. Her carpets don't sell very well, and her income is scarce, she even has problems feeding herself. But I buy this carpet she made, and she has got enough money for her family to survive on for several months. I don't know this happened, I don't know the lady, I don't know what I did for her, all I know is that I have an expensive and beautiful carpet I'll be proudly showing off to my friends.
The lady, on the other hand, doesn't know me either. She has no idea where her carpet went, maybe she never even heard of Germany. All she knows is that somebody bought her carpet and thanks to that she has enough money to survive.

It can be that simple, and in this age of globalization, it is the rule, not the exception. We can argue if this is good, or if this is the correct way, but we can't argue that it is happening.
 
Perun, you're an idealist [!--emo&:P--][img src=\'style_emoticons/[#EMO_DIR#]/tongue.gif\' border=\'0\' style=\'vertical-align:middle\' alt=\'tongue.gif\' /][!--endemo--]
 
Of course I am [!--emo&:D--][img src=\'style_emoticons/[#EMO_DIR#]/biggrin.gif\' border=\'0\' style=\'vertical-align:middle\' alt=\'biggrin.gif\' /][!--endemo--]
 
Onhell, I agree that people in the prime of their youth that have strenght to live and to carry on shoudln't consider suicide before trying other ways to sort out their life... But where do you dtand on the Schiavo case?

Hypotheticaly, a 60 year old man knows he has cancer. At his age, he knows he hasn't that much to live anyway, and that cacer therapy would be very exhausting and painfull, and probably wouldn't survive it anyway. Doesen't he have the right to end his life?
 
[!--QuoteBegin--][div class=\'quotetop\']QUOTE[/div][div class=\'quotemain\'][!--QuoteEBegin--] Go through unusual and unexpected hardships in life and you may begin to understand that some people are desperate enough to end their suffering by ending their lifes. As you most probably haven't -- well I hope so for you! -- I see your point, although I don't agree with it.

Suicide isn't necessarily cowardice. It takes a brave person -- or desperate enough -- to end life.  [/quote]

You don't know if I have suffered or to what extent, or what I draw from to form my conclusions. I have mentioned in previous posts about my accident, luckily nothing serious came of it, but my parents suffered greatly, specially my mother. Did she become an alchoholic? Atheist? Drug addict? Killed herself? NO! Was it easy to cope with my accident? Fuck no, she still has problems dealing with it (and it's been 22 years). That is just ONE case.

I don't think there is anything "brave" about not having the guts to deal with your lot in life. I'm afraid that in this case Mav we definately disagree immensly.

[!--QuoteBegin--][div class=\'quotetop\']QUOTE[/div][div class=\'quotemain\'][!--QuoteEBegin--]Onhell, I agree that people in the prime of their youth that have strenght to live and to carry on shoudln't consider suicide before trying other ways to sort out their life... But where do you dtand on the Schiavo case?

Hypotheticaly, a 60 year old man knows he has cancer. At his age, he knows he hasn't that much to live anyway, and that cacer therapy would be very exhausting and painfull, and probably wouldn't survive it anyway. Doesen't he have the right to end his life? [/quote]

The Schiavo case is different because she didn't even make the decision, obviously because of her condition, sadly she was more a politcal tool more than anything else.
If you have a deadly illness at 60 years old I think suicide is the last of your worries. Hopefully you have already lived a good life, have healthy kids and grandkids, you're retired and knowing you will definately die in 6 months, 10 years or whatever shouldn't scare you.

As for your Bum friend Perun, Ever since I can remember there was an old lady behind the hospital next to my highschool in Mexico. She always asked for money for her cough medicine (even though she never coughed or seemed to be sick) My earliest memory of her is when I was 4, and I saw her for 16 more years. Then on one of my last trips to Mexico I drove through there and she wasn't there.... I keep wondering, did she finally move to another street? It is more likely that she died as she was already pretty old. But I do stop and wonder whatever happened to her.
 
Pretty off-topic- I think every town has it's own famous bum. Here, my parents told me about a guy called "Valerica Nebunu" which translates as Mad Valerica. He was homeless and pretty much looked penniless. He also babelled on his own. I don't think there was anyone who could actually understand what he said. And one day he just wasn't anywhere to be found. Rumours that sprung after his disapearance say that he was actually a corespondant for the Free Europe Radio Station, that was banned here. They say the Security Services got to him and found his transmiter in his clothes...
 
Hey, we are 5,000 million humans crawling all over the place! There is no food enough for all. Every time you eat, remember someone is not eating precisley because you are eating. Just think about it. Wake up and smell reality.

So if someone wishes to die, may he die! if, he is a 17 year old jackass who doesn't want to live anymore because her girlfriend is sleeping with his friend, so be it! (yes, I still think a suicide is a worthless coward, in this case). Millions would have to die if we want the world to be a better place. At least if we want everyone to eat every day.

...Oh, and Perun, about the widow in Iran, it's sad but it is more likely that the profit for the rug you bought in Germany, is everywhere but in that woman's hands. Have you heard the term exploitation???
 
[!--QuoteBegin-Killer+Oct 13 2005, 11:13 PM--][div class=\'quotetop\']QUOTE(Killer @ Oct 13 2005, 11:13 PM)[/div][div class=\'quotemain\'][!--QuoteEBegin--]...Oh, and Perun, about the widow in Iran, it's sad but it is more likely that the profit for the rug you bought in Germany, is everywhere but in that woman's hands. Have you heard the term exploitation???
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I'm aware of that, and I was building an idealistic and possibly not entirely realistic scenario to back up my point. I deliberatly chose an Iranian carpet-weaver, because these people usually do see some of the money their work makes. If I replaced the Iranian carpet weaver by a Bengali child who makes Nike® shoes, it would of course be a different story.
 
[!--QuoteBegin-Perun+Oct 14 2005, 08:21 AM--][div class=\'quotetop\']QUOTE(Perun @ Oct 14 2005, 08:21 AM)[/div][div class=\'quotemain\'][!--QuoteEBegin--]I'm aware of that, and I was building an idealistic and possibly not entirely realistic scenario to back up my point. I deliberatly chose an Iranian carpet-weaver, because these people usually do see some of the money their work makes. If I replaced the Iranian carpet weaver by a Bengali child who makes Nike® shoes, it would of course be a different story.
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Well Perun, I must say you've got a point there. Yes iranian carpet-weavers do get some profit precisly because it is a handcraft wich not everybody can make and it takes a lot of work hours.

Most of the money goes somewhere else, though!

All the fault is in the sin of capitalism!!! Oh, but that's not what we are discussing here [!--emo&:lol:--][img src=\'style_emoticons/[#EMO_DIR#]/lol[1].gif\' border=\'0\' style=\'vertical-align:middle\' alt=\'lol[1].gif\' /][!--endemo--]
 
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