A interesting question of fate

Mmm...Donuts

Trooper
Many people say that their actions are ruled by fate or destiny or some predetermined stuff, and often when they screw up, sometimes even say they were fated to do that. I personally think of fate as a scapegoat of some sorts, and all of us mold our own lives. I'm a Catholic but predermination is kinda out of bounds for me, since we exist to unfold our lives through our actions. So if we were predetermiend to just mess up or something, then life would be for naught, but I believe we exist so we can create our lives with our own intentions. So, what is your personal opinion on this fate stuff?
 
I don't believe in fate.  Biology, social pressures, both subtle and obvious, and some free-will choices determine the course of our lives.
 
I sort of believe in fate...

For example, if I fall down some stairs, that was because of stupid me, I just fell down, or if I fail a course, that wasn't fated at all.  In the other hand, if something happens and changes my life (like meeting someone I deeply care about), I think it was fated.
 
I'm going to agree with Khan here, but take it a bit further. I wouldn't say we have some free will choices, we have MANY. Whether we sucumb to the pressures he mentioned is something else, but we have the free will to make any decision.

Here is a simple example. You go to a bar. Your choices are predetermined by whatever is available at that bar, however once you know your choices you can choose whatever you want. You can order a Cosmo, or a cherry flavored vodka with a little umbrella because you like it. However, the thought of all the other guys there looking down upon you for having chosen a "girlie" drink and hence being branded a "fag" upsets you along with the fact that you might fail to engage in conversation with a woman because of that, might lead you to ordering something else. So whether you sucumb to the social pressures or ignore them, is still up to you.
 
If the question is "do you believe in fate" my answer is "hell no"!
If the question is "do you think we have a 100% control on our choises" my answer is "hell no!" because of the so-called social pressures and mostly education.
As a conclusion we have a certain level of autonomy -epsilon-  ranging between 0 and 100%
The interesting point is to examine how, and to which extent epsilon has been (and still is) changing through time and across civilisations. But that's another question isn't it?
 
this reminds me what the philosophs call "the question of Marguerite" (Goethe, Faust)
when Marguerite asks if he believes in god (Glaubst du au Gott?), he answers :

"who dares to say I delive in god?
who dares to say I don't believe in god?
"

change the term god with the term fate, and you'll have my reponse
or if you prefere Dostoyefsky's reponse to the same question (here, you don't have to change any term):

"if Stayrogin believes, he don't believes that he believes
if Stayrogin doesn't believe, he doesn't believe that he doesn't believe
"
 
There are some scenarios that people may relate to fate, especially like:
You and some soulmate are fated to each other,
It's fate that you met a long lost friend in the mall,
A loved one dies or something and you believe you are fated to live life lonely.

Well, to me, fate isn't involved at all.

Like, if you meet your girlfriend, you weren't fated for her, you actually did something to earn her.
Met an old friend, it wasn't fate, you just went to the mall at the same time and met.
When a loved one dies, it was just his time to go, nothing more, you werent fated to be alone, there are more people in the world.
 
Fate, no, or maybe, or no or... Predetermination, sort of...

I believe that through our lives we come to these crossroads, or what you want to call them. We come to these crossroads every now and then, some often, some seldom. You choose which path to choose but I believe that in some ways what happens along that path is predetermined. It's determined by what you do, who you are, your experiences, education, but also the random occurencies we can't explain - that's where fate or predetermination sets in.
 
I think that the general direction of our lives is predetermined from birth, but that we change and alter our fate throughout our lives by the choices we make and the things we do.
 
Metal_made said:
I sort of believe in fate...

For example, if I fall down some stairs, that was because of stupid me, I just fell down, or if I fail a course, that wasn't fated at all.  In the other hand, if something happens and changes my life (like meeting someone I deeply care about), I think it was fated.

What happens, hypothetically, if you and the girl break-up, is it still fate?  What's your opinion, here, Metal_made?  I'm not trying to stir up muck here.

____no5 said:
or if you prefere Dostoyefsky's reponse to the same question (here, you don't have to change any term):

"if Stayrogin believes, he don't believes that he believes
if Stayrogin doesn't believe, he doesn't believe that he doesn't believe
"

This sounds like sticking one's head in the sand, which is a great quote to show that free will outside of bounds of reality is not truly free will.  In order to have free will, one must first understand the situation one is in and the underlying reasons that shape the situation.  The ability to reason is key.  Being able to predict, with reasonable accuracy, where different choices will take a person, allows us the benefit of free will.  Political freedom is necessary for free will in all individuals.  We have free will to the degree that we in our society have political freedom.
 
What do you mean by political freedom?
And what exactly do you mean with: "This sounds like sticking one's head in the sand, which is a great quote to show that free will outside of bounds of reality is not truly free will." ?
 
Natalie said:
What do you mean by political freedom?

Political freedom?  That's when we do not have nanny governments telling us how to live our lives, which is happening more and more these days.  Freedoms like freedom of speech, freedom of peaceful assembly, etc are all political freedoms.  You can't truly have free will, if you fear that your life or freedom are in jeopardy if you break a law.  One can argue that he/she can still choose to be arrested for breaking a law, but this is nitpicking and any free will in this kind of scenario is negligible.

Natalie said:
And what exactly do you mean with: "This sounds like sticking one's head in the sand, which is a great quote to show that free will outside of bounds of reality is not truly free will." ?

Read No. 5's quote again.  Tell me that does not sound like Dostoyevsky is describing a human-ostrich sticking its head in the sand as a coping mechanism. 
 
Freedom can be thought of doing what we want to do, but this can be severely limited to what standards society may offer to us at life. 
Let's put it this way, standards of society can sort of predetermine our direction, but this is by no means fate for me. We still have the free will to lead our lives where we want to, but we can always overlook the limits of society.
We have the ability to weave throughout society even with these limits.
 
Genghis Khan said:
What happens, hypothetically, if you and the girl break-up, is it still fate?  What's your opinion, here, Metal_made?  I'm not trying to stir up muck here.

That is an interesting question, but, I think that if that breaking-up changes my life, well, I would still think it was fated.  However, I don't completely disagree with your point of the choices back there.

I guess I just believe in key moments that were fated.
 
Wars are won and lost before they’re even fought, something to that effect was said by Sun Tzu (last paragraph of the first chapter), he was talking about the merits of planning but I believe this also applies to fate. If you study the composition of a battle you’ll see that every  thing that is going to effect the outcome of a battle is already there before it begins, the quality of soldiers and generals, the terrain and whether, the weapons, etc., now you could argue that even so the reactions of the humans in the event are the wildcards, but maybe not, if you think about it even this could be a set value in the equation of time, because a person acts according to what he knows and upon the experience of past events, so maybe even if that person does something out of the ordinary it might look like that because we cant see the big picture. Take Waterloo, the illness that struck napoleon was there before the attack began, the aggressiveness of Ney was there and could we really have expected anything else from him when he took command in the absence of Napoleon, the whit of Wellington and his ability to take advantage of the terrain was apparent before the battle, and the whether that delayed the initial attack was also there before the attack. 
If we could see everything in a given moment then we might see things unfolding rather than starting to happen, this for me is logical but obviously my humanity tells me that’s impossible because that would suck the life out of life and would make things much harder to understand, determinism or zokonomernosty are dehumanizing terms to me but the logic behind them, at least to me, are interesting.

 
I've been thinking about this question a little more and have decided to use ship imagery to explain my viewpoint (yes, I am copying from countless authors and playwrights I admit). Lets just say for instance that every person is a sailor on a ship. They can move around deck, go up, down, all around, yet the direction in which the ship is moving is fixed. I think fate is like that. We may can make choices in life but we are steadily moving in a direction which has been set for us.
 
Natalie said:
I've been thinking about this question a little more and have decided to use ship imagery to explain my viewpoint (yes, I am copying from countless authors and playwrights I admit). Lets just say for instance that every person is a sailor on a ship. They can move around deck, go up, down, all around, yet the direction in which the ship is moving is fixed. I think fate is like that. We may can make choices in life but we are steadily moving in a direction which has been set for us.

Not necessarilly though, life may have some sort direction, but a the ship's captain can change the course or even turn back anytime, plus there can always be storms in life that may swerve its direction to port or starboard.
 
Good point, but you see, I never mentioned a ships captain.  :P
No, seriously, even if there is a captain he is obliged to steer the boat in the direction specified by someone higher in position than he. The play, Rosencrantz and Guildenstern are Dead by Tom Stoppard illustrates my point quite well.
 
Mmm...Donuts said:
Not necessarilly though, life may have some sort direction, but a the ship's captain can change the course or even turn back anytime, plus there can always be storms in life that may swerve its direction to port or starboard.

you are reading this WAY to literal. Simply put, you are born and you will die... that is a fixed direction, no turning back, you WILL die. When? psh who knows, you can only delay it by driving carefully, having a good diet and health, etc.
 
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