A Canadian's take on September 11th.

LooseCannon

Enterprise-class aircraft carrier
Staff member
Please note: I originally wrote this on another board but decided it was just...too inflammatory for the general attitudes there.

It is hard for me to find things to say on this day.  Half of me sits here and ponders that it is the day the world changed (indeed, for the worst), and that like so many others, I cannot forget exactly where I was when Al-Qaida struck down two of the world's mightiest buildings with the fire of their hatred.  I remember the quiet aftermath of a terrorist strike deep into the body of a great nation, and I remember watching the great Union prepare to rise up and, as always, shake off the damage of an aggressor and prepare to move forward.  Was it any different when the Confederates fired on Fort Sumter, people asked.  Was it any different when the Japanese bombed Pearl Harbor?  Many people, many Canadians, have a lot of derision for the United States - I have a great respect for our allies, not least because in the past, the United States has been a beacon of strength, power, and inspiration.

What other country could drag itself, hand over hand, out of the deep pit of the Great Depression?  What other country could rebuild savaged states in a matter of a decade?  What other country could survive the destruction of an entire fleet at the hands of a surprise assault?  You see, when the towers were struck, I, and many others with the sense to watch the world, drew in a breath and waited for the vengeance of America wounded, but not bowed.  Certainly not broken under the terrorist's knife, for I believe there is not now and has never been any knife long enough to pierce the heart of America held by a foreign warrior.  And the right things happened - all the world went to war against Al-Qaeda.  The terrorist's bases in Afghanistan were broken by the assault of the world's free peoples; American, British, Canadian, German, Polish, Spanish, and more.

Political documents are somewhat of a hobby of mine, that is to say, I enjoy reading them and reading about their development and interpretation over time.  I can remember being eleven and reading through the Charter of Rights and Freedoms, and being enthralled by the idea it held - a universal contract we are born into that protects our rights to exist.  As I grew and was educated, I read other documents like it, and of course, the pinnacle of those documents, the first and the originator of the entire idea of modern western democracy: the Constitution of the United States.  It seems to me, that the heart of our West, that the soul of our combined being are these documents that protect and demand the continued protection of our rights as individuals.

Opportunism and fear run hand in hand, and we can sadly see the same opportunism and fear running hand in hand today, as we could before.  Sometimes when someone says to me, "Remember 9/11!  Remember the Twin Towers!" in my mind I hear, "Remember the Maine!"  Because this same opportunism that surrounded a fearful New England in 1898 exists today in all of the United States - the simple fact that the greatest country in the world has placed their forces into a war they cannot win (not in Iraq, but vs. "terrorism") because of some very fuzzy pictures and a series of bold-faced lies.  Instead of turning the strength of the unified West against the ability of Osama Bin Laden to make war, the crucible was poured in Iraq and there the bloodied arms of the United States were thrust, and slowly they writhe and melt against the constant heat of those who believe in their beliefs enough to give their lives.

We must remember the events of September 11th, and we must support the troops deployed overseas.  They are dying because the West was fooled by their own fear.  They are dying because we are stifled.  The Constitution of the United States, a sacred document to me, indeed, the most sacred of all documents save for my own Charter, violated by the man who swore to uphold it, and the citizens are blinded by the flashing lights and screaming alerts of FoxNews.  Our greatest rememberance would be, now, to urge the Congresses and the Parliaments back to the task at hand: hunt down the man who perpetrated a great attack on the greatest nation, and to do so without succumbing to our own fear.  Benjamin Franklin said that, "Those who would give up essential liberty to purchase a little temporary safety, deserve neither liberty nor safety."  If we allow our freedoms to be taken away, how long before we are not free enough to deserve safety?  Our security *IS* our freedom, and we should fight to protect it.

I suggest not that we avenge but that we find justice for our dead.  Justice for the dead of 9/11 is the capture and lifetime solitary imprisonment of Osama Bin Laden and his inner circle.  Justice for the dead of Iraq is the impeachment and arrest of George Bush and his inner circle for violating his oath of office and misleading his nation into a war for no good cause.  To cause the first I would see our nations join together again, to end a global terrorist ring.  Our 54 dead of September 11th need their justice as well.  To cause the second I urge my southerly neighbours to educate themselves towards politics.  Your ignorance is the weapon of those who would see you without a voice, without meaning or matter.  Mass media does not present the story that needs presenting, instead try newspapers, magazines, the Internet, and journals.

I believe with all my heart that the way our society will fall is not from without.  Great societies have never fallen entirely due to exterior invasion.  No - Alexander's Macedonian Empire crumbled when he died and left no clear successor.  The Roman Empire fell to the corruption caused by the distance and time between cities and the inability of the Equestrian and Patricians to monitor the rule of the Emperors.  Victoria's British Empire was auctioned by Attlee's Labour Party to the highest bidder after the Second World War, and the Soviet Union could not withstand it's public's cry for equality in a society that was supposed to exemplify it.  If we forget that we are free men and women, born equal, for just a minute, that we all deserve the rights to free speech, religion, assembly, and press, then we risk losing our right to live the way we live.  That we risk losing to those who would gladly take all in order to claim our wealth as theirs.  That we risk losing our future, and the Age of Enlightenment's greatest child: liberty.
 
After LC's incredibly well written (didn't expect anything less), lucid and articulate piece, I give to you a MEXICAN'S, sarcastic, passionate, MUCH more inflammatory view of 9/11. I wrote this two years after 9/11 for a writing class. While I would rewrite some of it, I find the original form presented here still able to hold it's own over the years...


Conspiracy 9/11

Civilized man keeps to himself fighting anybody that tries to invade his space, even if it is someone from his own community. Or should I say Americans have a terrible fear of the outsider. “Those dirty Mexicans keep trying to come into our country.” “Osama Bin Laden is trying to take way our freedom.” Mine, mine, mine, nobody can have a share of my wonderful, homemade, American apple pie. The things to analyze and walk away from 9/11 are the events surrounding it. When something bad happens we are all quick to point fingers, “The terrorists did it,” But do we really take the time to stop and think, “Well, did we do something?” (Even though I am not a U.S. Citizen I will include myself.)
The founding fathers had a dream, a great dream, no other nation in the world has been as lucky as the United States to have so many intellectuals working on building the perfect country. I also bet they are all turning in their graves to see their precious dream crushed into a horrid nightmare. The dream in which we could all live in freedom turned into a nightmare where we fear our own neighbor and everybody is out to get us. The U.S. totals more murders annually than any other first world nation. Why are Americans so violent? Who knows, however an explanation can be found in two things, Foreign and Domestic Policy.

“Soldier boy, made of clay, now an empty shell,
Twenty-one, only son, but he served us well”
-Hetfield,

By foreign policy I mean the way the United States created and has maintained its empire. Empire? Yes, empire. And that has been through war. Like the Romans, Ottomans, Mongols, Spanish and English before them, America expanded through war. The last “real” war was WWII. Every war fought after that was driven on American self-interest. Rwanda and Argentina asked for U.S aid and in both occasions denied since the U.S it was not affected directly. Osama Bin Laden took credit for the bombing of two U.S. embassies in Africa, yet it wasn’t until he hit the continental U.S. that America finally acted. Thus, the acts of altruism and heroism lose their grandeur and romanticism when compared to higher acts that could have been shared with other countries in need. It is actually rather selfish. Europe has been a war torn continent for centuries, many countries (like middle eastern Iraq) have war in their own backyards, but the U.S. is hit once and the whole world must fall to its knees and pray for the dead, must wave American flags in compassion and pity the poor Americans who suffered a terrorist attack. Why weren’t Yugoslavian flags waved when Clinton bombed Kosovo day and night? The United States can be compared to a spoiled brat. It is the richest country in the world, yet it lacks culture, maturity and intelligence (like any spoiled brat.) If any country dares stand in its way the media is quick to make them out to be the new “enemy”. Economic embargoes and other threats are quick to follow. But how has a government that has turned tyrannical by the standards put forth by the found fathers gain such support?
War is Peace
Precisely by making someone else the bad guy. WWII: the Nazis and the Japanese, 1950’s: Korea, 1960’s: Vietnam, 1980’s: Central America, 1990’s: Sadam Hussein and Osama Bin Laden. These have been the scapegoats for America’s problems, they are to blame for our high oil prices, for our children going off to war, for getting fired, for getting stuck in traffic and for our less than perfect existence. By always fighting an external enemy your nation’s frustration is vented through its hatred toward it. Even if they don’t know on what continent or side of the globe it’s on. That way, it doesn’t matter if the President had extramarital affairs, there is a war going on. Te tax cuts only benefit the rich, wait, there is a war going on.


“Just like the pied piper lead rats through the streets
We dance like marionettes to the symphony of destruction”
Dave Mustaine

Now none of this is possible without a good system and it all starts in the education, through public schools the isolationist philosophy is imbedded in the public mind. In it you are taught the Native Americans were savages who needed to be exterminated, Communism was bad because it eradicated you choice between Frosted Flakes and Cheerios, stick shift cars are a hassle so buy automatic cars even though they are more expensive to buy, repair and maintain. The system grows and rewards obedient, reliable workers.  The grading system is A-F, “A” is awarded to the obedient, dependable and consistent worker be. Does as he is told not as he thinks. “F” is awarded to the black sheep that choose not to follow, who are rebellious and unpredictable. They system has no use for those. With those “A’s” they attend a “good” college and later get a “good” job and become “successful’ because they earn thousands of dollars. Hence Happiness = Rich. That equation brings a lot of frustration on an individual who realizes what the hell is going on and he can’t really break from the vicious cycle because everyone around him has been brainwashed beyond repair.
So, by having successfully embedded in your citizens that you are the most powerful nation in the world and if someone disagrees he is un-American, one of them (though “them” is never clearly defined), and kicking butt is the American way, the rest is child’s play.

Act I

As the elections of 2000 came to an end taxes were the talk of the town. That, and Florida for its amazing skill of addition. Who won? Who would become President? As it turns out, Al Gore. But wait! What’s this? The Electoral college, the institution that no one knows why it exists at all, decides that Bush is the winner making, many, many Americans unhappy. At the same time newspapers start warning that America could enter a depression by October 2001 and all throughout the year releasing polls showing the nation’s discontent with Bush winning the election. The events pre-9/11 are: A disgruntled public, economic woes and a very unpopular president who wanted to finish daddy’s business, but can’t really voice his message to angry people (angry at him that is).

Act II

On the morning of September 11th, 2001 the nation is shocked as it wakes up to find the Twin Towers pierced by two commercial airliners. Firefighters and policemen rush to the scene to rescue, if any, survivors. The nation is in shock and is quick to point fingers, but at ho? The media quickly releases bin Laden’s face on every magazine, newspaper, flyer and newscast for millions to release their frustration, anger and hate at a man they don’t know, who as far as we know could be an actor. Bin Laden is only seen on videotapes and lives “somewhere in the mountains.” A supposed billionaire who wears rags as a uniform, (if he was a billionaire he could at least buy camouflage equipment). But they didn’t care, the scapegoat had been pointed out and everybody hated it. Weeks later Bush bombed Afghanistan for opposing the U.S. instead of Saudi Arabia for training the man who committed the act. He targeted their training camps, which looked more like elementary jungle gyms than sophisticated, terrorist rearing facilities.

Aftermath

The results after 9/11 were not surprising. The disgruntled public united to support his fallen brother (unite the country); bush finally had the country’s support (had the country wrapped around his little finger), and indicated to every American to go on with their normal lives (buy, buy, buy, to prevent a depression). That was America’s reaction to the horrible tragedy, go shopping. Every commercial on radio and TV declared to buy “x” product, “For America.” But indeed with this the depression only became a recession.
Now with all of the country’s backing on whatever he does, Bush quickly moved from Afghanistan to his “Axis of Evil” Reaganesque rhetoric. Yet, of all the countries mentioned in the so-called Axis of Evil, Iraq is the one he became obsessed with. It didn’t matter if North Korea confessed of having a nuclear weapon, oh no, Saddam has to be removed. Why? Because his father failed to do so, so now Jr. has to clean up. Another reason is because they know where Saddam is. Bin Laden is hiding in some cave remember? ABC can get an interview with him, but the army, with all its technology, sucking 20% of the budget can’t use one of the many spy satellites to locate this guy.

Conclusion

Am I saying that the U.S. knew about and let the attack on the World Trade Center happen? Yes. Why would they do suck an outrageous act? For America war is a business. Why make all those missiles and weapons if you are not going to use them? Better, sell them to your enemies so they can have something to fight you back with, then find a cheap excuse to go in and exterminate them. Why hasn’t Hussein been toppled over? Because he himself is good business. He sells magazines, books, video games, increases ratings and until we find a new face to stamp “evil” on its forehead, America vents its frustrations at the mere mention of his name. But is all this worth the repercussions back at home? The hate crimes against Muslim-Americans, graffiti in bathrooms expressing feelings of discontent towards Islam and the loss of over 3,000 lives? My answer is, “No”.  The government seems to think otherwise. Am I saying that the firefighters weren’t truly heroes? No, I’m not denying that they were unfortunate pawns in the game of warfare, but they were the real heroes. Which makes the whole issue even more unfair. Rich politicians sit at home making decisions that will literally affect millions and the ones who carry it out are the ones who die.  I’d like to see Bush or Cheney at the front lines searching for Bin Laden. Instead we have a handful of frightened young men, most joined to get grants for college, who are torn between a sense of duty toward their country and survival.

“Land mine, has taken my sight, taken my speech, taken my hearing,
Taken my arms, taken my legs, taken my soul, left me with life in hell.”
-Hetfield

Today I saw a white building that on its side it said, ‘Disabled American Veterans.” Are there any veterans that are not disabled? I mean, my uncle ha a limp from being shot in Vietnam and others are missing extremities. But there are many more apparently not disabled veterans that have nightmares from the war. My late Uncle served in WWII and was never able to watch a movie about any war after that. My aunt told me how he would remember his friends that unfortunately had died. Nobody can be asked to take a gun, go to an unknown territory to kill in cold blood and expect them to return the same person.
It’ been over a year since the attacks and people still freak out when it is suggested that it was a conspiracy. Even when the media has finally exposed the lost FBI memo that never made it to the White House. But many things have happened since then to distract us, American Idol took the country by storm, Enron made the cover of Time, U.S News and The Economist for a few months, Cops aired its 14th season making sure white America keeps being scared of the vicious black man and the Washington Snipers made news for three weeks and faded into oblivion. As for the troll terrorizing the nation form his cave in remote Afghanistan? Well, turns out he is playing cyber games, passing messages to splinter cells all over the world hidden in porn sites. People wonder why he hates us so much. Well, the Romans gave us laws and democracy, the Muslims gave us medicine and algebra, as for America, its contributions have been McDonald’s, jeans and Brittany spears. Not that I’m standing on his defense, yet trying to spread this gospel to the ends of the earth does seem rather… unnerving.



NOTE: Again, old paper, but I find the core of it to still be very current. Obviously a lot of things have happened since then, people are irate with Bush, people have forgotten the Snipers (The African American and his Son who shot people through their car on the freeway), but aside from slight updates and some rewriting, again, I think this is a damn good opinion piece :p
 
For a long time I've wondered about the future of post-9/11 America. While only time will tell for sure, I have a feeling that neoconservatism and the xenophobic "America first" mentality it has produced are very much a passing phase that the American people want to wash their hands of. As for America's public image worldwide, I think that will take much longer to repair, but again, I think that's mostly a product of neo-conservatism and its already-fading influence on American foreign policy. With Bush, the main figurehead of all that was wrong with American policy in recent years, out of office in just over a year, I think it's safe to say that America will gradually enter a different somewhat different era.. Maybe I'm a little too optimistic, but I think the chance of America repeating its mistakes in the near future is slim.
 
Onhell,  You concentrated on the negative when referring to contributions made by Americans.  Micky-dees and Brittney...please give me a break!  Try Thomas Edison.  Try Henry Ford. Try Mr. BELL.  There were some really great president's in this Country at one time as well.  Most modern inventions came from Americans.  Also note that the MEDIA has far to much power!  The media is always forcing something down our throats that we don't want.  Bush is an idiot.  Fox news praises him.  The media wants to put labels on who the bad guys are, so they can SELL it to us like some pimps on the street!  You said America vents its frustrations....you mean the MEDIA.  The media reigns a lot of power here in America.  Please don't get that confused with the real Americans like myself.  I don't believe everthing the media has to say is accurate.  I believe we have been lied to on several different issues concerning 9/11.  But then again is that something new?  The Warren report....JFK...wtf?  Talk about a conspiracy.  Believe it or not Onhell, I do see your point, in most of your essay, however abrupt it may be.  I just can't condone the negative parts.

As for LC....After reading what you wrote I told myself...Incredible!  Absoulutly amazing!  You are a great writer for being 23 years old.  I was very impressed with this story and I am glad you posted it.  Thank you for taking the time to write it and think it.  If there was one true word to descibe it, I would say... *Honesty*
 
I think you're all incredibly interesting to read. A Swedish take on the events following 9-11 is that the terrorists already won! "How can he say that", you may ask (or not)? Consider the changes in America, with the Patriot Act, and the department of Homeland security. Consider what has happened in Great Britain in answer to the terrorist threat. Consider what's being done in Sweden because of the threat of terrorists -not that any terrorists have done anything in Sweden in the last 300 years or so. I guess that proves the security measures are effective, right?

Most countries in the EU and North America have introduced legislation that infringes our civil rights and our integrity. It's laws about phone taps, supervision of Internet traffic and emailing, and in Sweden our Attorney General (minister of justice) wanted to impose a law where all cell phone traffic crossing our borders would be listened to. This was something Finland put a stop to (thank you, Finland!) because they sometimes use a cell network called Telia-Sonera, a Swedish-Finnish company and they didn't want Sweden to intercept their traffic. But the idea and the intentions where there.

When we allow our legislators and our media to keep us scared they can also put us down and make us accept reductions in our privacy and our rights. Not all countries have a constitution as the USA, but we all have some inalienable rights, as freedom of speech, thought, religion etc. But how can we exercise our rights when someone is monitoring our calls, our instant messages, our mail conversations? The terrorists have won and the decision makers haven't even realised that yet. And this is not the fault of a Bush or a Blair, it's the fault of all national governments that agree on these measures. It may be a necessity but it's also not a step but a long stride back.
 
I am sorry, char, but such things cannot go unchallenged.

char_da_harlot said:
Try Thomas Edison.  Try Henry Ford. Try Mr. BELL.  
All famous inventors, but please remember, Alexander Graham Bell was born in Scotland and died in Canada.  Edison was famous for his strongarming, Henry Ford was a cheat, and Bell once paid a company to lose evidence that someone else had invented the telephone well before he did.

There were some really great president's in this Country at one time as well.
Very true.  Theodore and Franklin Roosevelt, Woodrow Wilson, Abraham Lincoln (though one can argue that Lincoln is the worst, as well as the best).

Most modern inventions came from Americans.
What the hell is this?  *some* modern inventions have come from Americans, but many - indeed, the far majority - have not.  The idea of electricity was developed by Voltaire, the internal combustion engine was developed almost primarily by Europeans (folk like Lenoir, Daimler, and Benz had an important role there).  The rifle was developed by Germans, the Saturn V rocket by Germans, the tank by British, and the submarine by the Dutch.  Yes, airplanes were invented in America but the jet engine was developed in Germany.  The computer?  British.  The steam engine?  British.  The aircraft carrier?  British.  To claim more than a small portion of inventions in the world for any country is both arrogant and ignorance.  America is neither the sole source of innovation nor culture for our globe, and most of the inventions that today drive our society (internal combustion, electricity, and the jet) were concieved and created in Europe.

The media reigns a lot of power here in America.  Please don't get that confused with the real Americans like myself.  I don't believe everthing the media has to say is accurate.
Good.  Nor should you.  People are not meant to accept what is presented to them at face value.  Education is the only way to grow as a person and to see the issues behind the facade.  However, inferring that others aren't "real" Americans is just as dangerous.  Those who are part of the mass media machine and those who follow it are real Americans - their votes count just as much as yours does.  Assuming that you are somehow a better American because you're educated and intelligent is dangerous - it assumes the other side is something it's not.

As for LC....After reading what you wrote I told myself...Incredible!  Absoulutly amazing!  You are a great writer for being 23 years old.  I was very impressed with this story and I am glad you posted it.  Thank you for taking the time to write it and think it.  If there was one true word to descibe it, I would say... *Honesty*
Thank you very much for the compliments...I would like to think that passionate writing is always going to be embolding.  Unfortunately the idea that the written or spoken word can be captivating is one lost on the majority of people.  I hope you understand that above I am not trying to insult you, but challenge some of the ideas within your statement that I consider Americo-centric and rather unthought out.

However, Onhell can be a bit of a dick.  From time to time.
 
LooseCannon said:
However, Onhell can be a bit of a dick.  From time to time.

I've never claimed otherwise :D

char_da_harlot said:
Onhell,  You concentrated on the negative when referring to contributions made by Americans.  Micky-dees and Brittney...please give me a break!  Try Thomas Edison.  Try Henry Ford. Try Mr. BELL.  There were some really great president's in this Country at one time as well.  Most modern inventions came from Americans.

Like I said I wrote this 4 or 5 years ago and I've found MANY mistakes in it, there is a blatant one in the first paragraph!!!! I'm surprised nobody's called me out on it. Anywho, as for inventions, many scientist in America were born, raised and educated elsewhere (Einstein, anyone?) As for LC's criticism of American inventors I disagree. Heroes are heroes regardless of their faults. It is their contributions or ideas that make them such, not their humanity. LC praised the American Constitution in his wonderful essay, a document written by cheats, slave owners (and slave fuckers), elitist hypocrites and probably liars.... Does it diminish the document or any of their other great contributions? Not at all. Ford is a good example, not only was he a cheat, but he was a proud racist. All the immigrants he hired he put them through classes to "Americanize" them as much as possible.... But hey, the Model T changed the world....
 
@LC-  I see your point of view.  Very true.  There are two sides to every story.  No one should take sides without looking at the other side.  All views should be shown so a solution can be made.  Or not....
 
Forostar said:
I find this a bit too confident. We'll talk again when the US troops leave Iraq. They're gonna leave a country in an apocalyptic state, heading towards a terrible civil war.

Heading towards?  No, they're already there, thanks to the "Coalition of the Willing".  Time to get out and let the Iraqis figure things out for themselves.  And if you read what I wrote, I was referring to the 2001 assault on Afghanistan.

And about Afghanistan: You think that all terrorist's bases are broken? Perhaps some bases are, but the terrorists? They come (especially from Pakistan) and go. Suicide bombings, hostages etc. etc. etc.  I agree that the actions of the Western world are better than ignoring terrorism. But to sketch it in such a positive manner, and from only one point of view, is not very realistic.

For a period of time, between December 2001 and May of 2003, the power of the Taliban and Al Qaeda in Afghanistan was broken.  They were in full retreat, forced over the mountains into Pakistan and almost completely removed from their base of power.  Ever since the Americans mostly left Afghanistan, that is when the Taliban's resurgance has occured.  The terrorists' bases were broken - they have since been rebuilt in the power vaccuum left since pulling out tens of thousands of soldiers.

What is a great society? Germany in WWII? It fell and it fell hard. From without. And Napoleon's Empire also did not fall because of a fart of one of his ministers. The "greatness" of the Dutch Repubic in the 17th century also disappeared because many other countries couldn't stand the wealth of the Dutch. Only by collaborating could they end it. Also the fall of the Roman empire had to do with outside factors.

The fall of the Roman Empire had to do entirely with *internal* factors that caused a disunity that external groups siezed upon.  There was not one single warlord nor chieftain who can take the credit for bringing Rome to its knees, not Alarich the Visigoth nor Attila the Hun, and they were the most powerful warlords of their time.  As for National Socialist Germany and Napoleonic France, I don't think you can argue either was a great society.  Both were short-term charismatic empires built on the shoulders of one man, and as such, went as that one man went.  As Hitler descended into idiocy, overconfidence, and incompetence, so the Third Reich crumbled.  As Napoleon ailed and became less of the man he was tactically and strategically, so the French Empire fell.  Neither were "great societies" to compare to the Pax Romana nor the spread of the Golden Horde.

However, what I wrote was pure rhetoric.  If I played with facts (and I certainly don't think I did too much), it was because it's an argument designed to entice to one point of view.  Certainly, if you think I am being mildly pro-Iraq, you should read it again.  I am entirely against the occupation of a sovereign nation in violation of international law, which, the Constitution says, should be held in accordance to the Constitution as the highest law in the United States of America.
 
I agree with most things you say but

LooseCannon said:
The fall of the Roman Empire had to do entirely with *internal* factors that caused a disunity that external groups siezed upon.  There was not one single warlord nor chieftain who can take the credit for bringing Rome to its knees, not Alarich the Visigoth nor Attila the Hun, and they were the most powerful warlords of their time.

is this entirely true? Pest, Christianity, revolts, so many outside "factors".

LooseCannon said:
  As for National Socialist Germany and Napoleonic France, I don't think you can argue either was a great society.

Playing the devil's advocat. What was great about Alexander's society? And the Roman? And on top: The American?

LooseCannon said:
As Napoleon ailed and became less of the man he was tactically and strategically, so the French Empire fell.  Neither were "great societies" to compare to the Pax Romana nor the spread of the Golden Horde.

However, what I wrote was pure rhetoric.  If I played with facts (and I certainly don't think I did too much), it was because it's an argument designed to entice to one point of view.  Certainly, if you think I am being mildly pro-Iraq, you should read it again.  I am entirely against the occupation of a sovereign nation in violation of international law, which, the Constitution says, should be held in accordance to the Constitution as the highest law in the United States of America.

Don't worry, you made a well written post, as stated earlier in this thread. I only find it interesting to view matters from different sides and see how people react.
 
Forostar said:
I agree with most things you say but

is this entirely true? Pest, Christianity, revolts, so many outside "factors".
Revolts = internal.  Christianity was a religion founded in a Roman-controlled state, spread throughout the Empire, and then adopted by Rome to it's death.  I would certainly call this internal.  Rome's inability to stay united (witness half of the Empire splitting off to form the Byzantine Empire) is what caused to to be so weak against the many external aggressors.


Playing the devil's advocat. What was great about Alexander's society? And the Roman? And on top: The American?
I would argue that Alexander's empire was more great because it spread certain western thoughts to certain areas, but admittedly, it is the weaker of the empires I chose.  Rome is great because it was Rome - the mightest of all Empires in Europe till the dawn of the Victorian Age.  However, if it makes you feel better, Imperial China suffered just as greatly from the same internal strife that allowed it to be picked apart by colonial Europeans.  And finally, the American society and the political revolution that it incited is a major turning point in world history. 

The penning not of the Declaration of Independence but of the Constitution of the United States has altered the course of global events.  Before this document, the idea of common equality was not at all in the political sphere - aristocracies were understandably frightened by the very notion that their actions should be dictated by those they ruled.  Though the Constitution was in no way perfect - the legal disenfranchisement and dehumanization of most of the populace - for the time it was revolutionary.  Indeed, the Constitution has evolved as times have to embrace ideas we would consider sacrilage to construct a country without (even if they're not there yet on homosexual rights).

But when you consider other political documents of the same type - as I originally mentioned, the Charter of Rights and Freedoms, which functions in a very similar way to the Bill of Rights addendum to the Constitution - it is very clear both by their structure and by their arrangement that they are derived from that first political document of import.  It is a terribly important piece of Western liberal democracies.  Without that Constitution, there would be no others like it, and that's every single free country in the world.

Current American popular culture is in many instances decrepit and unenviable.  However, it's contribution over time to the development of this world is, pretty much, unrivaled on the global scale, save perhaps by 17th-18th century Britain.  Great works of art, literature, and science have come from this nation.  America invented the Internet; America put a man on the moon; America built the Panama Canal and made the automobile affordable for you and I.  American presidents have brokered peace treaties and issued very important declarations.  They have lied and cheated and been honourable and courageous.  Americans are some of the most quotable people in the English language, and I am certainly not just referring to their presidents.  To deny them as "great" would be foolhardy, indeed, it would be erroneous.
 
Unfortunately I don't have much time to respond (have to catch a plane to Rhodes!)

But the current American society (we live now, and that's what your post was about) is not one to be proud of imo.

Cheers and see you all in two weeks!
 
Forostar said:
Unfortunately I don't have much time to respond (have to catch a plane to Rhodes!)

But the current American society (we live now, and that's what your post was about) is not one to be proud of imo.

Cheers and see you all in two weeks!

Have a good trip!  Just so you know, certain aspects of current American pop culture, yes, are detestable.  Overall, though, society is the summation of not just recent trends but of the whole.  There are some very strong aspects of current American culture, but the strength of American society can be located in things like Justice John E. Jones's recent landmark decision in Kitzmiller v. Dover Area School District.

Yes, there are some people who think America is toast because of the rise of Paris Hilton and fundamentalism, but decisions like this prove that there is still much strength of reason inside of America.
 
Thank you all for your remembrance and comments regarding the United States and the events of September 11th, 2001. What a terrible day it was. I happened to be in the Pentagon on Sept. 11th this year and I can tell you the atmosphere was chilling. All of you make very good points about America; too include the good and the bad. ... and yes, many things are bad right now but that's what makes democracy great, there will always be change. I have seen the roller coaster of global opinion about my country over the last 6 years go from almost total blind support to almost total disgust. It is painful to know that the majority of the rest of the world sees us in such a negative light now-a-days. I would just ask that you would judge us on an individual basis, rather than by our government or media (the majority of us here are very cool indeed).

My point in this post here, to reiterate, is to give thanks. The United States has not been a position to enlist the amount of global support that it has due to these terrorist acts in quite some time. As an American, one of the things I am most proud of is the amount of support we have given the rest of the world throughout history and to this day; sure, we've made mistakes along the way but what nation in the spotlight hasn't. To receive help and support back over the last half decade has not gone un-noticed and is much appreciated. (Yes, Onhell, even from Mexico - you are welcome at mi casa anytime).
 
Deano said:
I would just ask that you would judge us on an individual basis, rather than by our government or media (the majority of us here are very cool indeed).

(Yes, Onhell, even from Mexico - you are welcome at mi casa anytime).

LOL Thanks! Good to feel welcomed. And of course my critique was mostly of the current administration, not the nation as a whole, though their actions are SUPPOSED to be a reflection of the nation it is clear this has not been the case... lately anyway.
 
Unfortunately, in all elections and with all politicians the world over, there is always one main focus or one or few political views that stand out and get a candidate in office. You know, the economy, war, the death penalty, abortion, etc. Whether they are conservative or liberal often times does not matter, you get them in office for one reason and then get stuck with their other stances that may not be as desirable to you. << and let's not forget, politicians lie; I know, hard to believe huh? >> I have voted in every applicable election since becoming an adult and have won a few and lost a few, none of the people that have held any office and for whom I have voted however, portray an accurate semblance of myself for the most part. In most cases it's just a popularity contest for an under-educated and ill-informed MTV generation anyway.
 
Well... That too. But what I meant was the administration did have the backing of the entire nation at one point and now holds on to their unwavering base of 32%.
 
LooseCannon said:
I would argue that Alexander's empire was more great because it spread certain western thoughts to certain areas, but admittedly, it is the weaker of the empires I chose.

What empire? The man rode through it once and then died!
 
Perun said:
What empire? The man rode through it once and then died!
Not only that, "great" for spreading Hellenistic thought? That's mighty elitist don't you think? Eastern thought has it's good points. Admittedly whipping your but with your left hand and water rather than using toilet paper is not one of them... butt it does have good points :D
 
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