Paul Cairns (Mad Mac) played on The Soundhouse Tapes

[Cat Milk Supreme]

But they didn’t with Bruce in 82?

None of this makes any sense.

Personally I don't find it a stretch to think that the band/management could operate differently in 1982 and 1995.

What I find interesting is Steve/Rods mindset.

Did they reach out and have chats and give out golden discs in order to try prevent further legal cases (after Wilcock)? Or did the Wilcock case make them think that maybe there's some guys whose contributions they had forgotten about and they wanted to acknowledge them just for sheer fun and goodness?

 

[Luisma]

Bruce was legally contracted to a Samson publishers deal at the time

@BludBrutha here's your answer... However, before saying that "it doesn't make sense" you should consider the entire situation in which Maiden were.

In 1981, Maiden was still an upcoming band and even though Paul had been in the band for three years and was identified as the voice of Maiden, they were still on the rise. In 1993, Bruce had been in the band for 12 years, had made Maiden a global act, the world of Metal rock was changing, and the band is a cemented act... They had to make changes

Personally I don't find it a stretch to think that the band/management could operate differently in 1982 and 1995.

What I find interesting is Steve/Rods mindset.

Did they reach out and have chats and give out golden discs in order to try prevent further legal cases (after Wilcock)? Or did the Wilcock case make them think that maybe there's some guys whose contributions they had forgotten about and they wanted to acknowledge them just for sheer fun and goodness?

I have interviewed a lot of people for my books, some of them are very close friends to Steve and everyone says he is an honest person, who listens to everyone and makes his own opinions. I know for a fact that even before the Wilcock case, if an ex band member complained or made certain "demands" about how things, he would talk to them to see what could be done...

In the 70's every member and ex-member of Maiden was focused on doing their own thing, and make a name for themselves in the music industry, they weren't thinking about making money from their contributions (they couldn't foresee the future). For example, Wilcock left Maiden in good terms, giving his mask and epee to Vic Vella after his last concert with Maiden, formed V1 and afterwards, because of bad advice, sold Steve the Green Goddess and his entire gear. Bob Sawyer, in 1981, was asked if he felt "robbed" by Maiden because they paid him 300 pounds for 'Sanctuary' and he said he didn't. Anyway, what I am trying to say is that the ex-members didn't come asking for money or to be recognised at first (the only early exception was Barry Purkins), it happened very late (late 90's) and when they talked about it, Harris did make efforts to try and compensate them in different ways (to my understanding, not with money) and most of them seem happy about that. So, the acknowledgement came even before the Wilcock thing. As a matter of fact, I do know that if Dennis had handled things differently, he would have gotten something much better than what he got.

 

[Luisma]

What songs did Janick contribute to No Prayer? I don’t remember reading anything about him contributing to Bring Your Daughter either. I’ve always had an impression of that album as being Maiden’s most one-guitar album, Janick’s not doing much on it. Holy Smoke is the only one that obviously sticks out as being possibly Janick.

Also I thought the album was largely written before Janick was on board with Adrian having left during the sessions?

You may enjoy this and also learn from Bruce himself about Bring Your Daughter... https://www.stereogum.com/2253452/b...olo-career/interviews/weve-got-a-file-on-you/

 

[Mosh]

You may enjoy this and also learn from Bruce himself about Bring Your Daughter... https://www.stereogum.com/2253452/b...olo-career/interviews/weve-got-a-file-on-you/

Thanks that’s interesting although it still leaves some questions open ended:

1: Even when it was released as a single in 1989, Janick never received a credit for Bring Your Daughter. I understand he was at the writing session, but Bruce’s recounting of the events makes it sound like he came up with the riff himself and Janick was there to relay his ideas. I know the topic of songwriting credits is a thorny subject, but given that there are many songs on Iron Maiden and Bruce Dickinson albums credited solely to Bruce when he has said clearly that he doesn’t play an instrument well enough to fully realize his ideas without someone to work with, I’m not sure Janick would have received a credit anyway based on Maiden’s standards.

2: I am also curious what, if anything, Janick contributed to the No Prayer sessions proper. Regardless of what he contributed to BYD, that song wasn't specifically written for the album. Is there reason to believe Janick contributed anything else and was uncredited?

 

[Ruflux]

Dodgy Bruce Dickinson solo credits are definitely a bit of a recurring theme, aren't they? I was thinking about it earlier while listening to Empire of the Clouds since based on both what we can hear in the song and various interviews from the time, that song probably should've had at least three additional names credited for its various parts and general arrangement.

 

[Luisma]

Thanks that’s interesting although it still leaves some questions open ended:

1: Even when it was released as a single in 1989, Janick never received a credit for Bring Your Daughter. I understand he was at the writing session, but Bruce’s recounting of the events makes it sound like he came up with the riff himself and Janick was there to relay his ideas. I know the topic of songwriting credits is a thorny subject, but given that there are many songs on Iron Maiden and Bruce Dickinson albums credited solely to Bruce when he has said clearly that he doesn’t play an instrument well enough to fully realize his ideas without someone to work with, I’m not sure Janick would have received a credit anyway based on Maiden’s standards.

2: I am also curious what, if anything, Janick contributed to the No Prayer sessions proper. Regardless of what he contributed to BYD, that song wasn't specifically written for the album. Is there reason to believe Janick contributed anything else and was uncredited?

1. I completely understand your point. So I dug into one of my ebooks to get this pair of quotes:

"Bruce called me and I went 'round to see him and he brought out this song that sounded AC/DC-ish, and I said, 'Nah, it wants to be more like…' So I put the chords in and then we re-did the chorus. He was trying to get away from the Maiden sound, so he was very open to ideas." (Janick Gers – Excerpt from Run To The Hills: The Authorised Biography of Iron Maiden - 2003) This one definitely sounds kind of like you say BUT notice Janick put chords in the song and kind of re-arranged the chorus... Does that deserve a credit?

"Wrote it in about three minutes with Janick Gers. I don't know where the title came from, it just popped into my head." (Bruce Dickinson for Mick Wall - Guitar Legends No. 104 – 2008) Here we have Bruce saying that he wrote the song WITH Gers. Not that he rearranged it but that he wrote it with Janick.

Another thing that may be added or considered is that every song in the Tattooed Millionaire album was written by the pair, so, are we to believe that this one song wasn't written by them also? (I know the song precedees the album but the fact hints that the pair worked well together).

2. For what I know and have researched, most of the songs in No Prayer were indeed already written when Janick arrived, however, he did have some input into the songs and he basically put his style into each one of them, now, does this mean he deserved a credit? I don't think so in this case.

 

[Mosh]

1. I completely understand your point. So I dug into one of my ebooks to get this pair of quotes:

"Bruce called me and I went 'round to see him and he brought out this song that sounded AC/DC-ish, and I said, 'Nah, it wants to be more like…' So I put the chords in and then we re-did the chorus. He was trying to get away from the Maiden sound, so he was very open to ideas." (Janick Gers – Excerpt from Run To The Hills: The Authorised Biography of Iron Maiden - 2003) This one definitely sounds kind of like you say BUT notice Janick put chords in the song and kind of re-arranged the chorus... Does that deserve a credit?

"Wrote it in about three minutes with Janick Gers. I don't know where the title came from, it just popped into my head." (Bruce Dickinson for Mick Wall - Guitar Legends No. 104 – 2008) Here we have Bruce saying that he wrote the song WITH Gers. Not that he rearranged it but that he wrote it with Janick.

Another thing that may be added or considered is that every song in the Tattooed Millionaire album was written by the pair, so, are we to believe that this one song wasn't written by them also? (I know the song precedees the album but the fact hints that the pair worked well together).

2. For what I know and have researched, most of the songs in No Prayer were indeed already written when Janick arrived, however, he did have some input into the songs and he basically put his style into each one of them, now, does this mean he deserved a credit? I don't think so in this case.

I guess it all comes down to what @Ruflux said about crediting being dodgy. No Lies on TM is credited solely to Bruce though so it seems there is some distinction (and I always felt that song was like a little cousin to Daughter). I am guessing some combination of Adrian/Dave/Steve could have contributed to Revelations/Flash of the Blade etc but there’s some threshold for what can receive credit or not.

For a second during the reunion era, I thought it had become policy for Steve to receive credit on every song. Of course Book of Souls and Senjutsu proved that not to be the case, but I suspect the approach to writing also changed (sounds like Bruce and Adrian prepare material before the sessions begin now and Bruce doesn’t contribute outside of that).

 

[Cat Milk Supreme]

In terms of credits, Infinite Dreams always puzzled me. The intro in particular seems like a guitar player wrote.

Although Steve has said that he hums/whistles his melodies for the guys. I'd love to see a video of him sittin down with Dave doin the intro to Infinite Dreams....

"Right, Dave, I want a cool volume swell type thing, it goes waa waa waa wa-wa waa waaaaa"

 

[Luisma]

I guess it all comes down to what @Ruflux said about crediting being dodgy. No Lies on TM is credited solely to Bruce though so it seems there is some distinction (and I always felt that song was like a little cousin to Daughter). I am guessing some combination of Adrian/Dave/Steve could have contributed to Revelations/Flash of the Blade etc but there’s some threshold for what can receive credit or not.

For a second during the reunion era, I thought it had become policy for Steve to receive credit on every song. Of course Book of Souls and Senjutsu proved that not to be the case, but I suspect the approach to writing also changed (sounds like Bruce and Adrian prepare material before the sessions begin now and Bruce doesn’t contribute outside of that).

It is dodgy... And has changed a bit through the years... For example, crediting a band member that wasn't in the band only happened in 1990.

Crediting a member on their first album 1995

And I still think that If Eternity Should Fail should be credited Roy Z/Dickinson so that would be the third time (first time being 'Sanctuary', second time 'Bring Your Daughter...') that Maiden used a song written by someone who wasn't in the band at all.

So it makes sense that on Book Of SOuls and Senjutsu things changed.

I know for a fact that when Bruce came back in 1999, many of the rules changed in order to keep everyone happy so lots of things changed within the Maiden organisation

 

[Magnus]

Dental floss salesmen from Montana all of them anyway, so what's the fuss.

 

[paulcairns]

10/12/2024 Dover Kent UK.....hi guys Paul here,...look I know what we did at Spaceward,as for the real story ie our demo tape/ Neil Kay Soundhouse/etc etc,Steve Dave and Doug will remember,Loopy aswell I've no doubt ! sadly Paul no longer with us though RIP....just on Nicko leaving the band,really what an amazing career he's had huh,wish him well,god bless !..and may I personally wish all Maidens legions of fans a brilliant christmas '24 rock on into '25 ..ok, so cheers guys,keep safe all the very best to the band,to Rod and the management team,2025 gonna be awesome I've no doubt.... Paul,"Mad Mac"(I never liked that moniker) Cairns

 

[wizardry]

Thank you for the good wishes. I've seen Paul comment on Iron Maiden videos, and it's his channel as you can see him play some guitar on videos he uploaded himself. That's a gorgeous golden disc, and a gorgeous guitar by the way.

 

[07-SMS:A1L]

10/12/2024 Dover Kent UK.....hi guys Paul here,...look I know what we did at Spaceward,as for the real story ie our demo tape/ Neil Kay Soundhouse/etc etc,Steve Dave and Doug will remember,Loopy aswell I've no doubt ! sadly Paul no longer with us though RIP....just on Nicko leaving the band,really what an amazing career he's had huh,wish him well,god bless !..and may I personally wish all Maidens legions of fans a brilliant christmas '24 rock on into '25 ..ok, so cheers guys,keep safe all the very best to the band,to Rod and the management team,2025 gonna be awesome I've no doubt.... Paul,"Mad Mac"(I never liked that moniker) CairnsView attachment 40364

Fantastic picture, Paul! I've always admired your work with Maiden on The Soundhouse Tapes—you and Doug truly left your mark on those tracks. Do you have any plans to catch the band when they play in London this summer?

 

[Luisma]

10/12/2024 Dover Kent UK.....hi guys Paul here,...look I know what we did at Spaceward,as for the real story ie our demo tape/ Neil Kay Soundhouse/etc etc,Steve Dave and Doug will remember,Loopy aswell I've no doubt ! sadly Paul no longer with us though RIP....just on Nicko leaving the band,really what an amazing career he's had huh,wish him well,god bless !..and may I personally wish all Maidens legions of fans a brilliant christmas '24 rock on into '25 ..ok, so cheers guys,keep safe all the very best to the band,to Rod and the management team,2025 gonna be awesome I've no doubt.... Paul,"Mad Mac"(I never liked that moniker) CairnsView attachment 40364

Paul, is there any chance you tell us more about your time in Maiden? I would love to know about setlist, gigs you played as I already know lots about the Spaceward recording... And you did help them get bigger before your back issues

 

[Spaldy]

Well, that was unexpected.

 

[Siddharth]

10/12/2024 Dover Kent UK.....hi guys Paul here,...look I know what we did at Spaceward,as for the real story ie our demo tape/ Neil Kay Soundhouse/etc etc,Steve Dave and Doug will remember,Loopy aswell I've no doubt ! sadly Paul no longer with us though RIP....just on Nicko leaving the band,really what an amazing career he's had huh,wish him well,god bless !..and may I personally wish all Maidens legions of fans a brilliant christmas '24 rock on into '25 ..ok, so cheers guys,keep safe all the very best to the band,to Rod and the management team,2025 gonna be awesome I've no doubt.... Paul,"Mad Mac"(I never liked that moniker) CairnsView attachment 40364

Great to have you here Sir! If possible, please do share your memories while being a part of the band's journey. Cheers!

 

[07-SMS:A1L]

Well, that was unexpected.

Not every day you have an actual former Iron Maiden member in the forum.

 

[Perun]

This a subject I did studied when writting my first book.

The story can be summarised like this. Most of the songs that went into the two albums basically had collaborations by other band members, some of them changed quite a lot, for example, Floating (A.K.A Purgatory) and some not so much (Wrathchild). At the time, most of those members who did not remained in the band, basically had no interest in protecting their contributions, they just did it and didn't think much about it because, after all, to them, Maiden was just another pub band.... Enter Rod Smallwood (around mid 79) and things are growing so he goes and basically sets the rule of 'you're not in the band, you're not credited'. Now, some of the past members (as was Blaze) were compensated for their contributions (Bob Sawyer, Sanctuary), while the others just didn't care. Of course, there's the exception of Barry Purkins A.K.A. who did contribute to what we know as 'The Ides Of March'... But what happens? Maiden has a huge record label behind them while Barry has almost nothing so what was he going to do? Litigate? No chance... So he basically got sweet F*** for his contribution... Somethings similar happened to Dennis Wilcock with the exception that his lawyer was a total c**t who thought he would be smart and yes, did get a settement but nowhere near what he was claiming...

Anyway, what I'm trying to say is that most of the time, things have been settled in an amicable way and there are no hard feelings... But there are some exceptions like Ron Matthews who sometimes is bitter about how his tenure with Maiden ended....

Do you have any further info on the Willcock settlement? The latest public information is the response from the Maiden camp and McKay's subsequent meltdown. Not meaning to say I don't believe you, just genuinely interested in what happened. Especially because the lawsuit papers make some, let's say, problematic claims.

 

[Luisma]

Do you have any further info on the Willcock settlement? The latest public information is the response from the Maiden camp and McKay's subsequent meltdown. Not meaning to say I don't believe you, just genuinely interested in what happened. Especially because the lawsuit papers make some, let's say, problematic claims.

I do mate but being such a delicate matter and that the parties involved didn't want to comment anything further, I won't go into details as I certainly don't want to risk losing the trust of the people in the Maiden camp that have collaborated with me in so many things.

All I can say is that the stress Dennis endured after the settlement has taken a serious toll on him, the reason I don't think public will ever learn anything more from him. I may also add, and I do think you can find this on the web, is that the lawsuit ended up being dropped.

 

[Perun]

I do mate but being such a delicate matter and that the parties involved didn't want to comment anything further, I won't go into details as I certainly don't want to risk losing the trust of the people in the Maiden camp that have collaborated with me in so many things.

All I can say is that the stress Dennis endured after the settlement has taken a serious toll on him, the reason I don't think public will ever learn anything more from him.

Thanks for the info. I just found it interesting, because what you said about the settlement being nowhere near the original claim reminds me of the Beckett lawsuit: "Iron Maiden’s management failed to produce any accurate earnings figures until both parties had already spent well over half a million pounds on legal costs. Once the lower than expected figures had been examined, both parties agreed to settle the claim. The defendants (Steve Harris and Dave Murray) have paid all of the Plaintiff’s considerable legal costs as well as their own legal costs and six figure damages." (Source)

As far as I understand Dennis Willcock already withdrew from the public just after the lawsuit was announced. Kind of makes you wonder why McKay, with the experience from the previous lawsuit, didn't advise Willcock to just seek a quiet, out-of-court settlement. If you think about it, the whole row made about the lawsuit back then hurt his career from the start. Maybe Willcock should sue McKay...