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USA Politics

Discussion in 'General Discussion' started by Genghis Khan, Dec 22, 2007.

  1. Forostar

    Forostar Ancient Mariner

    I haven't had time to look into these yet, but I wonder if they involved people like Assad and comparable terror and stubborness?
    Assad had a big deal in this.
    I don't think this action prolongued this war.
    These rockets prevented the use of planes (and airfield) to continue the Assad/Russia led bombings. So they prevent more killings. At least, they prevent gas killings.
    I wonder which things Russia wants. And if that's going to happen.

    Do you agree with Tillerson here?

    The United States hopes Russia will abandon its support Syrian President Bashar al-Assad because actions such as last week's chemical attack have stripped him of all legitimacy, U.S. Secretary of State Rex Tillerson said on Tuesday.
    "It is clear to us the reign of the Assad family is coming to an end," he told reporters at a meeting of Group of Seven foreign ministers shortly before leaving for Moscow.
    "We hope that the Russian government concludes that they have aligned themselves with an unreliable partner in (Syrian President) Bashar Al-Assad," he said.
    Last edited: Apr 11, 2017
  2. Perun

    Perun At the Heart of Winter Staff Member

    You're going to find differences if you look for them, but yes, I think the conflicts in Bosnia, Northern Ireland, Tajikistan or the Iran-Iraq War could qualify for such attributes.

    As did ISIL, Al Nusra, Rojava, FSA, Islamic Front, etc. Funny how we suddenly forgot about all those. Plus, it doesn't make a difference for the victim who shot or gassed him.

    I see.

    You don't know this. The US government claimed it destroyed a fifth of the Syrian air force, but I cannot stress this enough, it's the same government that claimed Trump's inauguration had the biggest ever turnout, that the Bowling Green Massacre happened, that Obama wiretapped Trump and that microwaves are surveilling people.

    I do not agree that this is Rex Tillerson's business. I do not agree that the US has any business here if what they are doing is using Syria as a battlefield for a proxy war against Russia. I do not agree that the Trump administration should be applauded for this, and I am frankly deeply disturbed by the fact that it is finding approval for this from people who otherwise like to say they're huge critics of Trump's. He is playing a game with you. He is trying to get your approval on something, he wants to hear from everybody on some issue that he is the right man for the job. This is where it would be appropriate to compare it to the rise of Hitler. This is exactly what Hitler did - draw everyone in on something.
  3. Forostar

    Forostar Ancient Mariner

    Well, I assure you that I will stay criticial in everything Trump and his people are doing. I can't predict the future but I like how something else is tried in this conflict.
    Not angering the Russians hasn't brought anyone further. It didn't stop the stream of refugees one bit. Not fearing them all the time seems important. The US is not intimidated by Turkey's anger over the use of Kurdish warriors who are doing a lot of fighting on the ground vs ISIL. Let that be a good example. There are always going to be people who do not like to see the war ended.

    You mentioned all these other groups but when you remove their common enemy, you also remove some ground for (counter) terrorism. Who knows people turn into civilians again. I am sure there are some examples where that happened.
  4. Perun

    Perun At the Heart of Winter Staff Member

    I can see that we won't find common ground on this.

    Or you will remove the single common ground they had and can watch how they turn on each other. It's happened before in Afghanistan after the Soviets left, in Somalia after Barre was ousted, in the Congo after Mobutu was overthrown, in Iraq after Saddam was executed, and in Libya after Gadaffi was killed.

    I can tell you that I do not trust Trump, a man who advocated killing civilians and using torture in the past, one bit and think that allowing this person to command someone firing even one shot is testament to the limitlessness of human stupidity.
  5. Forostar

    Forostar Ancient Mariner

    Apart from forum ground. ;)
  6. CriedWhenBrucieLeft

    CriedWhenBrucieLeft Ancient Mariner

    The reality:
    Pointless US intervention. Also illegal.
  7. Forostar

    Forostar Ancient Mariner

    We'll see about that.
    Then what if I say this.

    I hope Russia will abandon its support Syrian President Bashar al-Assad because actions such as last week's chemical attack have stripped him of all legitimacy.

    I hope that the Russian government concludes that they have aligned themselves with an unreliable partner in (Syrian President) Bashar Al-Assad.

    Do you agree with me?

    What would you like to see Russia do?

    They bombed the shit out East Aleppo. Yes, that was cruel. That was outright evil.
    I was the only one here who showed his disgust about it. I can't believe that some out here are more concerned with legality of this minor US response. I am really doubting about what you guys really hope for. How can you have hope if you leave Assad and Putin having their ways.
    Last edited: Apr 11, 2017
  8. Perun

    Perun At the Heart of Winter Staff Member

    I don't know how things would develop without Assad. See my post above on examples in which countries collapsed after their heinous dictators were gone.
  9. Perun

    Perun At the Heart of Winter Staff Member

  10. Forostar

    Forostar Ancient Mariner

    Shall we get rid of NATO?

    Shall we get rid of the U.N.?

    Shall we get rid of all our armies, and everything will be alright in the world?

    The idea of no meddling at all in any other sovereign nation, despite any circumstances, how long can that stand? How many more victims? How many more refugees?

    What is worth living, when everything is tolerated.
  11. Forostar

    Forostar Ancient Mariner

  12. Perun

    Perun At the Heart of Winter Staff Member

    It's useless to have a discussion when the emotions flare up this much, so I'm not going to continue it for now. Calm down, have a cup of tea and a good night's sleep, and we'll try to get back to rationality tomorrow.
    Forostar likes this.
  13. Cornfed Hick

    Cornfed Hick Electric Eye

    I can't help but wonder if the Trump Administration's decision to bomb Syria would have been different absent a pending investigation into Russian meddling in his election, or absent accusations that Trump or his staff may have had improper contacts with Russian officials during the campaign. I, for one, don't think so. The prevailing view among my (primarily liberal, for what that's worth) friends is that the U.S.'s response was reasonable -- maybe even the bare minimum of what Trump should or would have been expected to do. If Putin/Assad thought Trump would do nothing in response, they definitely miscalculated. Trump's foreign policy is becoming fairly predictable: he will respond to crises or provocations in ways that he thinks will make him appear strong, or at least not weak.
  14. Mosh

    Mosh The years just pass like trains Staff Member

    I don't know if the Russia scandal influenced the decision at all, but they will definitely use it as supposed evidence that nothing happened.
  15. Travis The Dragon

    Travis The Dragon SCREAM FOR ME MINNESOTA!!!

    What are your thoughts on the US sending ships to North Korea as well as China sending 150,000 troops to the border? I feel this is a good move since we definitely need to try and send a message to Kim. Also, I think it's a good thing that China is backing us up on this considering it was a concern of how they would react if we were to attack NK.
  16. Zare

    Zare Dream of broken citadels

    Good. The CBG is strong enough to take down ICBMs in initial phase and use air groups to retaliate against infrastructure. 150k soldiers on the Chinese border should be a guarantee for S.Korea, Kim can't entrench million soldiers on the other side of the DMZ if the other land border isn't secure.
  17. Travis The Dragon

    Travis The Dragon SCREAM FOR ME MINNESOTA!!!

    The DEFCON Warning System has changed the DEFCON level to 4. Go here for the details and reasons for the change: http://defconwarningsystem.com/2017/04/12/defcon-warning-system-update-41117/

    Last edited: Apr 12, 2017
  18. CriedWhenBrucieLeft

    CriedWhenBrucieLeft Ancient Mariner

  19. bearfan

    bearfan Ancient Mariner

    Re: Syria. I'll say this, getting into a proxy war with the Russia ... or at least any more than we have been for the last several years there is not something we should do.

    If the strike was "no gas weapons and this is what happens when you use them" ... I am fine with that. For various reasons, many that do not make sense and some that do, killing people with gas is worse than killing them with munitions in the international community ... that seems to be a line most countries draw.

    But, if the goal is to destabilize and weaken Russia, which has traditionally been a good goal with leaders from the Tsars, Lenin, Stalin, et al though now Putin ... the way to do it is economically , and the way to do that is lower energy prices and the US exporting natural gas to markets Russia has a corner on. Russia has a crap economy, it always has and it is and always has been based on a ton of people and natural resources and right now, most of their eggs are in the petrochemical basket.

    Articles like this show what we need to do


    Spoiler alert .. LNG ports.
  20. Travis The Dragon

    Travis The Dragon SCREAM FOR ME MINNESOTA!!!

    Well, N. Korea attempted another missile test, but it failed again.

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