Let's try and get 1,000,000 replies to this post

[Saapanael]

The last couple of years have shown that Russia is far from the strong and respectable global power that they portrayed themselves as in the last few decades. It was all just posturing and charade.

Yet, idiots all over the world still see Putin as the epitomal manly man who will not yield to anybody. “A true man, unlike our leaders in the West.” Yeah, killing thousands of innocent people is really manly. This illusion is surprisingly strongly rooted in the minds of many.

 

[____no5]

Strategically and economically, because Russia needs the Baltic ports. The main theme for the last 200 years of Russian foreign policy has been to secure a non-seasonal access to the ocean it can use on its own terms and that isn't thousands of kilometres away from its industrial centres. The Baltic ports were the closest Russia has ever had to this.

Ideologically, because Russian imperialists consider the Baltics lost provinces of the Russian Empire. Putin is a literal worshipper of Ivan Ilyin. As in, holding services at his grave. He's not  reacting, he's trying to re-establish the Russian Empire.

Tactically, because the future of NATO is in question. If Trump wins the elections in November and is inaugurated in January, it is well possible that NATO is non-functional next spring. The US would also have withdrawn any support for Ukraine by that point. What would there be to stop Putin? From launching an invasion that is. Once such an invasion has started, there would be a lot to stop it from succeeding.

Wild statements in my opinion. The port argument makes somehow sense but still they have Kaliningrad, why to open another front provided all goes well there?
For trying to re-establish the Russian Empire I don't agree as Russian Empire was so vast you'd need a few more lifetimes to complete a few more dozens of invasions. I would agree with a different wording though, such as he would love to create a land-bridge with Transnistria. Definitely. Though for the moment, I don't see much evidence that he actually trying to do even that. War of attrition is what he actually does.

As for the third statement about future of NATO that feels beyond crazy to me. I can't see how a single person even being Trump could do such huge damage in such a short period. Not because he wouldn't want but because they wouldn't let him. Kennedy died for less.

If there was no war, maybe. If there wasn't an axis of China -Russia, no BRICS rising, maybe. But under this unfavourable timing no sovereign country, let alone the most powerful, could do such things. Withdraw from Ukraine could be a possibility under Trump though personally I seriously doubt it. Lower the intensity most probably.
In 2017 when there was no war, no axis, no BRICS and even allies were doubting its necessity he didn't dissolve NATO. What makes you think he would do now?

Now let's assume that NATO is weakened, not deliberately by Trump, but weakened. Then you could argue that Russian would be tempted to invade, but Russians are not alone, they exist in a coalition this is how they survived the sanctions war, I don't see how they could justify /legitimise an invasion towards Baltic countries. For Ukraine there was a huge build up; 2008, 2014, Donbas war, Minsk 2, etc.
I don't rule it out completely, but let's say that the world would be totally fucked up if Putin decided to proceed with such things. So a bit of long shot for now.

And lastly even if US /NATO completely pulls out, still there are Germany, France, Poland etc., they won't stay idle to watch Russia invade an ally and EU fellow state.

The Russian economy is completely in shambles and requires the war machine right now, otherwise it will collapse completely. Putin is in the unfortunate position (understatement of the year lol) where he needs to start another offensive to keep the war machine going.

Interesting thought. I can't say for sure if it's correct or not, yet kind of believable. Not for invading Baltic countries, I explained why not but to keep the war in Ukraine going, could be the case.

 

[Azas]

Wild statements in my opinion. The port argument makes somehow sense but still they have Kaliningrad, why to open another front provided all goes well there?
For trying to re-establish the Russian Empire I don't agree as Russian Empire was so vast you'd need a few more lifetimes to complete a few more dozens of invasions. I would agree with a different wording though, such as he would love to create a land-bridge with Transnistria. Definitely. Though for the moment, I don't see much evidence that he actually trying to do even that. War of attrition is what he actually does.

As for the third statement about future of NATO that feels beyond crazy to me. I can't see how a single person even being Trump could do such huge damage in such a short period. Not because he wouldn't want but because they wouldn't let him. Kennedy died for less.

If there was no war, maybe. If there wasn't an axis of China -Russia, no BRICS rising, maybe. But under this unfavourable timing no sovereign country, let alone the most powerful, could do such things. Withdraw from Ukraine could be a possibility under Trump though personally I seriously doubt it. Lower the intensity most probably.
In 2017 when there was no war, no axis, no BRICS and even allies were doubting its necessity he didn't dissolve NATO. What makes you think he would do now?

Now let's assume that NATO is weakened, not deliberately by Trump, but weakened. Then you could argue that Russian would be tempted to invade, but Russians are not alone, they exist in a coalition this is how they survived the sanctions war, I don't see how they could justify /legitimise an invasion towards Baltic countries. For Ukraine there was a huge build up; 2008, 2014, Donbas war, Minsk 2, etc.
I don't rule it out completely, but let's say that the world would be totally fucked up if Putin decided to proceed with such things. So a bit of long shot for now.

And lastly even if US /NATO completely pulls out, still there are Germany, France, Poland etc., they won't stay idle to watch Russia invade an ally and EU fellow state.



Interesting thought. I can't say for sure if it's correct or not, yet kind of believable. Not for invading Baltic countries, I explained why not but to keep the war in Ukraine going, could be the case.

No_5 I live in Lithuania and I say to You: You are a total dumbass. Sorry, but no so sorry. You have to hear such harsh words from the one like me. This insult must convey to you my emotions towards your wrong and propagandish views and total disorientation in politics. Perun is right on all issues. I suggest you to review your views. If Ukraine will fall and NATO will show any weakness, putin will surely invade. Fuck.

 

[____no5]

Per my friend, now that you are not just a mod but a doctor mod, please finally start trying to grok what the opposite side has to say before reacting.
I totally disagree with much of what @____no5 said here and elsewhere recently, but:
Jer kinda accused him of being a commie rat paid by China. You kinda accused him of being a crypto-Nazi (and you should know how insulting this is to a Greek).
Being both is not easy (although not impossible), but:
Virtually all Greeks of my age that I know (and no5 is roughly my age) are, while fiercely pro-democracy, deeply suspicious of US - and often Nato - because of the Colonels junta mostly, and the support it got when it shouldn't had.
This is one of my very few serious posts here over all the years and what I'm trying to say is let's all try to think more and judge less, ok?

Yes deeply suspicious, not just the junta, also the civil war events, police state, hundreds of thousands of people had to leave the country because of their political beliefs etc.

Your post had a healing effect this morning. Empathy, respect and good will. This is how to best engage with each other so to learn from each other. Good will to explore the truth rather than debating. And try to use the right tone and language in order to promote this. At least we try.

 

[Perun]

The port argument makes somehow sense but still they have Kaliningrad, why to open another front provided all goes well there?

Because a) Kaliningrad is still only one port, and b) land access is blocked by two EU/NATO countries. With Petersburg and Kaliningrad, Russia has two industrial Baltic Sea ports, despite being the largest country bordering the Baltic (and being the largest country in Europe, and the world). Germany has six. Poland has four. Even Lithuania has two if you count Kaunas as an inland port. All nations bordering the Baltic have far better access to the sea and thus to the ocean than Russia does. This is objectively a major imbalance, and one that has always been a major grievance to Russia.

For trying to re-establish the Russian Empire I don't agree as Russian Empire was so vast you'd need a few more lifetimes to complete a few more dozens of invasions. I would agree with a different wording though, such as he would love to create a land-bridge with Transnistria. Definitely. Though for the moment, I don't see much evidence that he actually trying to do even that. War of attrition is what he actually does.

War of attrition is what the Ukraine war turned into, but it was not Putin's strategy. He wanted to take Kiev and turn Ukraine into a part of his empire. And he still does; he's just waiting for support for Ukraine to falter. Honestly: Look up on Ivan Ilyin, and keep in mind that Putin turned his grave into a shrine and quotes him in virtually every speech he gives. I cannot emphasise this enough.
Also, I'm pretty sure Putin himself doesn't think that it would take several lifetimes to re-conquer the territories he thinks rightfully belong to Russia - and he'd tell you it basically took Stalin three years.

As for the third statement about future of NATO that feels beyond crazy to me. I can't see how a single person even being Trump could do such huge damage in such a short period. Not because he wouldn't want but because they wouldn't let him.

Who's "they"?

Yes deeply suspicious, not just the junta, also the civil war events, police state, hundreds of thousands of people had to leave the country because of their political beliefs etc.

I said time and again that I detest US imperialism as well. I was on the streets against the Iraq War in 2003. But none of what the US do is even in the remotest sense a justification for what Putin does.

I thought about our exchange last night and this morning, and I know I've been harsh to you. I think we both do not understand each other. I don't understand your mistrust against all things "western" because I haven't had your experience with the military dictatorship in your country. And you don't understand my uncompromising stance against Putin because you're not witnessing how the freedom of my country is under attack by people on his payroll (and that's not a conspiracy theory, it's a fact proven multiple times over). So where do we go from here?

 

[Vaenyr]

With all due respect, but 5's views aren't purely explained by Greece's history. That's certainly a part of it, but living in China is arguably more relevant in my opinion. I'm Greek as well and have wildly different views compared to 5. I think these things are a bit too complicated to boil down to one factor or variable. It's a combination of our lived experiences that shape our views.

 

[Magnus]

It would be a lie to pretend Stargazer isn't the favourite by far.

Yet another sign this world is going down the drain but so be it.

 

[Mosh]

So LC is most qualified to answer this but I’m putting it out there for anyone with more insight: is there a general consensus greatest metal song already? In other words, is Stargazer a heavy favorite for any other reason besides this forum likes it? Outside of this forum I’ve found that a lot of metal fans don’t even know the song. In fact I bought Rainbow Rising because it was @Forostar’s avatar at the time. I feel like Heaven and Hell, Painkiller, The Sentinel, Master of Puppets could be just as favorable if not more.

 

[Jer]

is there a general consensus greatest metal song already? In other words, is Stargazer a heavy favorite for any other reason besides this forum likes it?

No, there isn’t a consensus, and if there were, it almost certainly would not be for “Stargazer” outside of this forum (or a classic rock one, or a Rainbow one).

 

[____no5]

With all due respect, but 5's views aren't purely explained by Greece's history. That's certainly a part of it, but living in China is arguably more relevant in my opinion. I'm Greek as well and have wildly different views compared to 5. I think these things are a bit too complicated to boil down to one factor or variable. It's a combination of our lived experiences that shape our views.

Sure. It's the combination of someone's personal experiences, obviously environment, but before here I lived in other countries, both EU and not. Wide variety of experiences and even lifestyles to boil it down to just one variable.

For the Greek part, I don't fully agree, in my case I've born, grew up, school, university, worked and paid taxes in Greece, before I start going around the world. I've seen the "ugly" face of the country, not only her breathtaking beauty.

 

[____no5]

Because a) Kaliningrad is still only one port, and b) land access is blocked by two EU/NATO countries. With Petersburg and Kaliningrad, Russia has two industrial Baltic Sea ports, despite being the largest country bordering the Baltic (and being the largest country in Europe, and the world). Germany has six. Poland has four. Even Lithuania has two if you count Kaunas as an inland port. All nations bordering the Baltic have far better access to the sea and thus to the ocean than Russia does. This is objectively a major imbalance, and one that has always been a major grievance to Russia.

Valid points, I just can't see Russia opening another front for that. Don't forget that the melting of ice in the Artic Sea plus the shift of Russia towards the East will shift the tensions for control up there.

Honestly: Look up on Ivan Ilyin, and keep in mind that Putin turned his grave into a shrine and quotes him in virtually every speech he gives. I cannot emphasise this enough.

Thanks for the tip, I'll look it up!

Who's "they"?

Establishment, military industrial complex, every country is like an organism the president is the top of iceberg. I think you will agree with me that even in the most authoritarian countries the head of state is part of a system he cannot just do whatever he likes, let alone in the most solid democracy in the world.

iI thought about our exchange last night and this morning, and I know I've been harsh to you. I think we both do not understand each other. I don't understand your mistrust against all things "western" because I haven't had your experience with the military dictatorship in your country. And you don't understand my uncompromising stance against Putin because you're not witnessing how the freedom of my country is under attack by people on his payroll (and that's not a conspiracy theory, it's a fact proven multiple times over). So where do we go from here?

Trust on each other's strive to seek the truth, on each other's intentions and integrity. Genuine interest and openness to hear the other's view is a good starting point. This is what is all about, there is not one universal truth, it's good to hear different voices.

I've noticed the last few days that many engagements look like debates. Then I brought in my mind all my real life friends. I don't fully agree with a single one of them, but when they tell me something I just listen without judging. Maybe we lay down our arguments but we'll never question the integrity and intentions of each other.
I know this is internet, but it's also a small community and we've been around for ages. It's not how we could make the most from each other. Let's hear more what the other has to say, maybe understand why, judge less. And I don't just mean publicly judge. Mostly I mean inside us when we hear something let's not discard it just yet. No need to agree, just listen is good enough.

Tone, words and language count, to maintain this harmony of true dialogue. It must be real in order to work best, if not let's keep it nice and deeply polite, it's also good.

I know very well that you are constantly striving to be a better person and you care about those things and I always appreciate that.

 

[Vaenyr]

From what I've seen outside of the forum there is no way that Stargazer would be seen as the best metal/rock song. It isn't even that known compared to other songs from the same band.

 

[srfc]

So LC is most qualified to answer this but I’m putting it out there for anyone with more insight: is there a general consensus greatest metal song already? In other words, is Stargazer a heavy favorite for any other reason besides this forum likes it? Outside of this forum I’ve found that a lot of metal fans don’t even know the song. In fact I bought Rainbow Rising because it was @Forostar’s avatar at the time. I feel like Heaven and Hell, Painkiller, The Sentinel, Master of Puppets could be just as favorable if not more.

I have a feeling if there was in existence some Prog/Power Metal crossover song called "Unicorns in the Land of Rainbows Symphony in F# Minor" it would easily win a competition decided by voters who voted for Blind fuckin' Guardian over Kill the King.

 

[Diesel 11]

is there a general consensus greatest metal song already? In other words, is Stargazer a heavy favorite for any other reason besides this forum likes it?

Yeah I think “Stargazer” deserves a place in the Top 20, and it’s certainly Rainbow’s definitive song, but based on my experiences the two songs that are almost always brought up in metal circles and publications — aka, not Rolling Stone — as being rivals for the title of Best Metal Song are “Hallowed Be Thy Name” and “Master of Puppets”. They’re to metal what “Stairway to Heaven” and “Free Bird” are to classic rock, if that makes sense.

I feel like Heaven and Hell, Painkiller, The Sentinel, Master of Puppets could be just as favorable if not more.

“Painkiller”, certainly, although “Breaking the Law” is about equal to it in fame. I would definitely expect to see “Black Sabbath”, “War Pigs”, or “Iron Man” higher than “Heaven and Hell” though. I think Dio’s Sabbath career, while iconic and important, gets overrated on this forum as well (and conversely, Ozzy’s solo career gets underrated; “Crazy Train” definitely belongs in the Top 20 as well).

I worked on Top 200 Metal Songs list of my own that I counted down with some friends two years ago. Obviously no list will overlook personal biases (I had to go back and revise the list because I shafted power metal in the original draft) but I tried to be as objective as possible with it and based it on my own observations within metal communities. I might finish publishing it on a website somewhere and link it here because I still feel like I included a lot of songs often overlooked, especially by people like Rolling Stone who think that “Round and Round” is a Top 20 metal song lol.

 

[Spambot]

So LC is most qualified to answer this but I’m putting it out there for anyone with more insight: is there a general consensus greatest metal song already? In other words, is Stargazer a heavy favorite for any other reason besides this forum likes it? Outside of this forum I’ve found that a lot of metal fans don’t even know the song. In fact I bought Rainbow Rising because it was @Forostar’s avatar at the time. I feel like Heaven and Hell, Painkiller, The Sentinel, Master of Puppets could be just as favorable if not more.

I think Loose is basing it on how many people from MF nominated this song and how it fared on the list he used for GMSC. It might win here, but on more global scale I don't think it has chance of winning. For me, "the best" has to have mainstream appeal also, which means that people who don't listen to metal should've heard of this song and I don't think a lot of people (who don't listen to metal) even know "Stargazer".
Then again, I always thought that "Master of Puppets" along with "Enter Sandman" and "Nothing Else Matters" was top 3 Metallica songs but obviously I was wrong since there was whole frenzy about it when it appeared in "Stranger Things".

 

[Jer]

Trust on each other's strive to seek the truth, on each other's intentions and integrity. Genuine interest and openness to hear the other's view is a good starting point. This is what is all about, there is not one universal truth, it's good to hear different voices.

Yes, but people have to demonstrate that they're actually listening. When they dodge well-reasoned and supported arguments, discard counterarguments out of hand, and just repeat their already discredited views as if the previous conversation never happened, that demonstrates a lack of intellectual honesty and integrity.

Let's hear more what the other has to say

Yep.

maybe understand why

Yep.

judge less.

Nope. We shouldn't pre-judge, but we should absolutely judge people's arguments based on their merits (or lack thereof). If your point of view is correct, it will survive any challenge. If it's incorrect, those challenges will reveal its weaknesses and give everyone a chance to get closer to the truth.

If someone's opinion is shown to be unsupportable, or even directly refutable, should we stand by and value their opinion just as much as anyone else's? We should listen, of course, and the person should have the opportunity to answer any challenges to their opinion -- but if they can't carve out an evidence- and reason-based foundation for their opinion, why should it be respected?

 

[Azas]

There's no need to drink from the poisoned Well. In fact, it's wise to warn other people not to drink from it.

 

[Mosh]

Yeah I think “Stargazer” deserves a place in the Top 20, and it’s certainly Rainbow’s definitive song, but based on my experiences the two songs that are almost always brought up in metal circles and publications — aka, not Rolling Stone — as being rivals for the title of Best Metal Song are “Hallowed Be Thy Name” and “Master of Puppets”. They’re to metal what “Stairway to Heaven” and “Free Bird” are to classic rock, if that makes sense.

This was my thought as well, but going off of intuition and not having looked at any of these lists. I omitted Hallowed because Maiden songs aren’t relevant here, but I think in a general Metal survey Hallowed would be the clear favorite.

The tricky thing is that there is the general public’s understanding of Metal and the hardcore audience understanding of Metal. If we polled a bunch of casuals, I would say Master of Puppets is a runaway favorite. Once you get into an audience with any amount of substantial knowledge of the genre, I have no idea.

 

[Night Prowler]

I don't think Rainbow is metal enough to have the best metal song.

 

[LooseCannon]

I guess we'll see!