Let's settle one debate here and now - Yes, I think it's a better seafaring song than Ghost of the Navigator, and no, it's not really close. The difference really comes in the feeling of the two songs - Ghost of the Navigator is great but it just doesn't have the same atmosphere or level of storytelling that The Talisman does, and that makes all the difference.
This atmosphere is present right from the beginning of the song. The quiet introductory verse is incredibly evocative, creating a wonderful musical landscape of a harbour at dawn. The guitars are really good here, the bass is nice and restrained, as is Bruce. The lack of drums is a good touch as well.
This all sets up for one of the best drops I've ever heard at 2:21, as the song explodes and our voyage begins. Bruce lets rip and I enjoy his vocals on this song more than perhaps any other of the album - some say he sounds strained but to me he sounds like he's actually trying. The shredding is great. On the surface it's similar to Ghost of the Navigator, but benefits from not having Brave New World's very sharp, almost metallic production. It also benefits from having more melodies from the other guitars (e.g. 2:54) that really help provide the adventurous atmosphere.
3:33 sees a nice shift in pace, and 3:44 provides some of the great melodies this song has to distinguish itself from a straight forward shred. We see this again at 4:33, to great effect. 4:48 sees the verses obtain an ominous change of pace, which lead nicely into the great chorus at 5:33 - perhaps the best on the album.
If I have one qualm with this song, it's the post-chorus instrumental section. I don't think it works in the context of this song, which would've done better with a more straightforward, fast paced solo as opposed to the odd breakdown we get here. It ruins the pace of the song in my mind to the extent that were it not there, this song would probably be in my top 10 - because the rest of it is a stunning piece of storytelling and a rollicking good time.
The elimination of The Talisman leaves this album on its last song - the title track! Who saw that one coming?
Top 25:
25 -Seventh Son Of A Seventh Son 24 - The Edge Of Darkness
23 - Revelations
22 - Judas Be My Guide
21 - Lord Of Light
20 - Judgement Of Heaven
19 - The Red And The Black
18 - Blood Brothers
17 - Wasted Years
16 - Face In The Sand
15 - The Number Of The Beast
14 - The Talisman
13
12
11
10
9
8
7
6
5
4
3
2
1
Songs Remaining:
Killers Run To The Hills
Hallowed Be Thy Name Flight of Icarus Aces High
Powerslave Infinite Dreams Fear Of The Dark Dance of Death
Paschendale Satellite 15... The Final Frontier
Shadows of the Valley
Empire of the Clouds
This is a really good step by step description of The Talisman. It is quite a journey, and I think is a much better comparison to RoTAM and other Maidem epics than is The red and the black, ( this comparison was made earlier in the thread).
The Talisman succeeds where the RATB does not; the changes in tempo and mood are smooth and purposeful. It has a fluid story that flows beautifully. Whereas the TRATB gets lost along the way. I feel the Talisman is a tad overlooked. Certainly one of the best off of FF.....
This is a really good step by step description of The Talisman. It is quite a journey, and I think is a much better comparison to RoTAM and other Maidem epics than is The red and the black, ( this comparison was made earlier in the thread).
The Talisman succeeds where the RATB does not; the changes in tempo and mood are smooth and purposeful. It has a fluid story that flows beautifully. Whereas the TRATB gets lost along the way. I feel the Talisman is a tad overlooked. Certainly one of the best off of FF.....
Ok then. Either way your description of the Talisman is very enjoyable. you nailed it. Apon further listen, it is a huge roller coaster of song that dips and peaks but remains smooth on the rails.
I suppose I'M saying it is a better comparison to the legendary ROTAM than the RATB then. Great job....
I've always felt that there's some similarity between this song and The Red and The Black. It's partly that they're the two "Whoa-oa-oa" songs on the album, but it's a little deeper than that. Both songs can at times feel like medleys of Maiden's other hits due to the amount they appear to borrow from other songs. I think it's the reason both get mixed reactions (this song moreso). For me, I don't mind too much if a band steals from themselves provided they do it well, and in both instances I'd say that's the case.
The most obvious instance of this stealing comes from the Wasted Years-esque intro. It's the bit of both songs that's most open to this criticism, and it isn't helped by the fact it feels very much like an extra for this song. Nonetheless, I still love the guitar work (And I do think the differences in speed and tone make it easily distinguishable from its namesake) and think the use of vocals over the top was a good idea to further distinguish it, with Bruce giving some great delivery especially on the last lines.
The verses continue the theme of borrowing sections I love from other songs, by using the chorus riff from The Fallen Angel. It's a riff with a spectacular amount of energy, and works wonderfully here. I haven't really deciphered the lyrical themes yet, but I do really like the raven that keeps appearing.
The chorus has a lot to live up to given the quality of the verses, but it somehow manages to do so - it's an absolute belter of a chorus. The post chorus riff is similarly memorable, thanks in large part to its oddly appealing abrupt cut-off.
Another trick up Maiden's sleeve is the idea of a guitar line mirroring the vocal lines, as seen in When The Wild Wind Blows and The Red and The Black. It's something I'm particularly fond of as I think it makes the verses feel more vibrant, so I really enjoy the solo verse that's done here, between the 2nd and 3rd choruses. That 3rd chorus is perhaps the part of the song I find most extraneous - just because you have a great chorus doesn't mean it needs to be played quite so much, and I think the song could've gone straight to the solos from here.
The solos in this song are alright. Nothing I consider particularly spectacular, but they're not too bad either. Ultimately to me they're padding, a build up before (and release after) the finest moment the entire album has to offer.
Yes, the bridge. You know the one, at 5:50. It might even be my favourite Iron Maiden moment ever - it's that good. From the moment Bruce starts singing "Into the valley of death, fear no evil..." to the very last "Whoa-oa-oa-oa", everything else stops. It's utterly glorious, a triumphant moment. This song should've been played live for this moment - I feel confident saying that, with a receptive crowd, this would be one of the most phenomenal live moments ever. Imagine 60,000 people screaming this in unison, fists to the sky, sandwiched between the (typically better, in my opinion) live solos. It would be euphoric.
Top 25:
25 -Seventh Son Of A Seventh Son 24 - The Edge Of Darkness
23 - Revelations
22 - Judas Be My Guide
21 - Lord Of Light
20 - Judgement Of Heaven
19 - The Red And The Black
18 - Blood Brothers
17 - Wasted Years
16 - Face In The Sand
15 - The Number Of The Beast
14 - The Talisman
13 - Shadows Of The Valley
12
11
10
9
8
7
6
5
4
3
2
1
Songs Remaining:
Killers Run To The Hills
Hallowed Be Thy Name Flight of Icarus Aces High
Powerslave Infinite Dreams Fear Of The Dark Dance of Death
Paschendale Satellite 15... The Final Frontier
Empire of the Clouds
Yes, the bridge. You know the one, at 5:50. It might even be my favourite Iron Maiden moment ever - it's that good. From the moment Bruce starts singing "Into the valley of death, fear no evil..." to the very last "Whoa-oa-oa-oa", everything else stops. It's utterly glorious, a triumphant moment. This song should've been played live for this moment - I feel confident saying that, with a receptive crowd, this would be one of the most phenomenal live moments ever. Imagine 60,000 people screaming this in unison, fists to the sky, sandwiched between the (typically better, in my opinion) live solos. It would be euphoric.
That's the problem with this song: one great moment in the middle of average ideas (in my opinion of what I consider to be Maiden standards). I'm not surprised this song is not played live, the same way "Mother of Mercy" wasn't either (its poor chorus spoils the whole -excellent- build-up that precedes it).
However, I agree that the part you mention is phenomenal. It is just that it is not "quantitatively" enough.
It's a handy place for a whoah-oh. Sadly, in this case it keeps sounding to me like they just ran out of lyrics and decided to round off the sound by whoah-oh-ing along to the tune instead. I'm sure that's not the case, but that's what it sounds it. Didn't Journeyman go the same way, too?
That said, I do like Shadows. Along with Empire of the Clouds its my joint most listened to track from Disc Two of The Book of Souls. Shadows of the Valley would sound right at home on Dance of Death, I reckon.
It's a handy place for a whoah-oh. Sadly, in this case it keeps sounding to me like they just ran out of lyrics and decided to round off the sound by whoah-oh-ing along to the tune instead. I'm sure that's not the case, but that's what it sounds it. Didn't Journeyman go the same way, too?
That said, I do like Shadows. Along with Empire of the Clouds its my joint most listened to track from Disc Two of The Book of Souls. Shadows of the Valley would sound right at home on Dance of Death, I reckon.
I don't recall the section in Journeyman you specifically mean. I'll take another listen.
Beyond this I may try switching out New Frontier and Gates of Tomorrow for Shadows of the Valley and seeing how the album works, but the mere idea of the first 8 tracks in a row of that hypothetical album is giving me goosebumps.
I don't recall the section in Journeyman you specifically mean. I'll take another listen.
Beyond this I may try switching out New Frontier and Gates of Tomorrow for Shadows of the Valley and seeing how the album works, but the mere idea of the first 8 tracks in a row of that hypothetical album is giving me goosebumps.
Shadows should absolutely have been played live (maybe it will next leg). That bridge is awesome and the oh oh s fit just right here. Along with speed of light this would have been my first choice for the BOS tour . So glad you've recognized shadows and placed it way up here!
This song has such captivating vocal melodies. And despite the tempo there's an atmospheric/moody quality that is hard to describe. Some guitar parts are not straight metal riffs but contain more subtle/soft work. E.g. during the chorus someone (or two guys) play(s) chords (melodies) on separate strings. Great Janick solo, check again those eery backing guitars. A downside is that there's a riff reminding me a lot of one in Where Eagles Dare (although it's not exactly the same!). Still a nice song and I can imagine that people love it very much.
Aye big fan of shadows, great atmosphere, great riffafter the chorus and that bit near the end is fuckin deadly, gives it a real lift. Top 3 on the album for me
I definitely love this song. It really needs to be played live, I think that's what it was written for but yet somehow it didn't make the cut. It would replace Blood Brothers very nicely in the set, yet hearing this and Wasted Years back to back would be a bit weird..
Shadows is my favourite song off BoS, and one of my favourites ever from Maiden in fact. When I first heard the song, I seemed to notice a lot of elements borrowed from other songs, like Wasted Years, Monstegur and Fallen Angel, and ironically, from the best parts of these respective songs. There seems to be something majestic, yet almost harrowing about the song's atmosphere, and it seems to escalate more and more into a crescendo of brilliance.
Shadows is probably my least favorite Maiden song since the DoD album. It't a bad song but it just seems like a hodgepodge of (recycled) ideas that didn't fit in any other songs. I agree with those saying that it would fit well on DoD, but even then it would be one of the lesser songs on that album.
I think there is difference between having like sounding parts of other songs (shadows of the valley).., and being a hodgepodge ( the red and the black). RTC used perfect descriptive words for SOTV: Harrowing. Majestic. And Cresendo of brilliance!
I find Shadows has one repetitive tempo, fails to create dramatic tension, lacks memorable melodies for the first four or five minutes and doesn't properly set up its excellent finish.
I find it interesting that people who have criticized other songs for being repetitive or boring overlook those same qualities here.
If there's one thing that can be repetitive in music (for me at least), then it can be tempo. There are more Maiden songs that keep the same tempo (Running Free, The Duellists, Purgatory).
How to tolerate this? Of course it also depends on what else goes on. I guess this is something we disagree about but I hear melodic and atmospherical qualities in this song. Bruce rules and I can't stress it too often: interesting guitar phrasing.
The tempo is consistent, not repetitive. It serves as a base for the magic going on above. And there is absolutely no lack of atmosphere. Shadows is a dilemma then. I hear the really unique riffs and Have the killer melodies in my head all day.
Everything builds up to the last minute + that sends the listener into a Maiden induced frenzy. Please lads, get this into the set! Again it amazes how the opinions of songs differ so much! On with the countdown DJ!
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