WHY did they strip-down the sound for No Prayer??

[EddieoftheOpera]

It's your dismissal of a whole genre tag that I don't agree with - and especially not on the basis of these two acts, who were indeed popular but not very typical. Poison are essentially ridiculed from within the genre, and Bon Jovi was always more of a pop act than metal.

Bon Jovi are often listed under the hair metal tag though, which is ridiculous. I know that in the 80s, a lot of underground metal fans ridiculed the entire movement, and it's still today looked back upon with laughter. I and many others don't see it as metal. Can you accept that?

 

[Maturin]

Fans of Maiden and Priest, Metallica or Slayer act like their stuff is the "real" metal and therefore have the right to decide what is metal and what is not. In the end it's just a categorization and glam metal is as valid a term as thrash or power metal. No need to start using derogatory terms for stuff that don't fit into that narrow set of values. I'll also tell you that while hair metal was ridiculed by heavy metal fans, metal fans in general were ridiculed by society at large and still are. See a pattern?

Meanwhile, Maiden themselves rather be called progressive rock...

 

[EddieoftheOpera]

Fans of Maiden and Priest, Metallica or Slayer act like their stuff is the "real" metal and therefore have the right to decide what is metal and what is not. In the end it's just a categorization and glam metal is as valid a term as thrash or power metal. No need to start using derogatory terms for stuff that don't fit into that narrow set of values. I'll also tell you that while hair metal was ridiculed by heavy metal fans, metal fans in general were ridiculed by society at large and still are. See a pattern?

Meanwhile, Maiden themselves rather be called progressive rock...

The right to decide what is metal? No just the right to debate about what they love.

 

[Mrcl]

Metal has a multitude of sub-genres, however one thing can be said, I don't remember where I read the quote though:

Metal is called Metal because its heavier than Rock. (think literal).

Now, where exactly that border between rock and metal lies is another story. For that matter, where is the cap on Rock - Hardrock - Metal?
I wouldn't class Bon Jovi as anything metal though. Neither would I do so with Europe. Or all the other similar sounding bands.

Its a subjective matter, this, and I guess the most valid we can get by is the classification the band gives themselves, if they do so. Otherwise we'd be discussing ad nauseam.
Maiden is Metal, Bon Jovi is Softrock-nonsense ad Europe is Glam-period.

 

[EddieoftheOpera]

Metal has a multitude of sub-genres, however one thing can be said, I don't remember where I read the quote though:

Metal is called Metal because its heavier than Rock. (think literal).

Now, where exactly that border between rock and metal lies is another story. For that matter, where is the cap on Rock - Hardrock - Metal?
I wouldn't class Bon Jovi as anything metal though. Neither would I do so with Europe. Or all the other similar sounding bands.

Its a subjective matter, this, and I guess the most valid we can get by is the classification the band gives themselves, if they do so. Otherwise we'd be discussing ad nauseam.
Maiden is Metal, Bon Jovi is Softrock-nonsense ad Europe is Glam-period.

THANK YOU. I got the sense that I was being called wrong for my opinion.

 

[mckindog]

I think the definition of metal has changed and the line between hard rock and metal was poorly defined — more so back then than now. (This is going from someone who was in high school when thrash arrived, and started to create that line).
In 1982 pretty much everybody considered AC/DC a metal act except the band itself.
Hair metal acts back then were definitely generally considered part of the metal sphere even when being dismissed by the more hardcore fans.

 

[EddieoftheOpera]

Hair metal acts back then were definitely generally considered part of the metal sphere even when being dismissed by the more hardcore fans.

I don't think pop music fans particularly had a good grasp on what metal was though.

thrash arrived, and started to create that line).

I think this sums up how I feel. The New Wave of British Heavy Metal and the early beginnings of thrash are the things that gave metal it's identity. I don't think that's narrow-minded, as there's still a huge difference between the sing-along melodies of power metal, the guttural growls and harsh screams of extreme metal, and the slow-tempo eerieness of doom metal and all of it's off-spring sub-genres and I think they justify being in the same genre. But I think the term became more precise. Not that there wasn't metal before NWOBHM. Like many I see Black Sabbath, some of what the Scorpions were doing (though not a ton of it) and Judas Priest as being metal but there has to be some way to classify things and metal needed a more precise definition as it's identity began to grow.[/QUOTE]

 

[Maturin]

Now, where exactly that border between rock and metal lies is another story. For that matter, where is the cap on Rock - Hardrock - Metal?
I wouldn't class Bon Jovi as anything metal though. Neither would I do so with Europe. Or all the other similar sounding bands.

But Europe were on the other hand nothing like Bon Jovi, most of the time.

I would say that's very much a heavy metal record.

 

[veddertown]

The period in time that No Prayer.. and FOTD were recorded and released weren't exactly the most harmonious for the band members.

Maiden is clearly Steve's band and always has been so any power struggles affect everyone in the group. Adrian had high ambitions and like Bruce was clearly bored before he departed and bearing in mind that the run of albums that preceded were Powerslave, Somewhere In Time and Seventh Son.. bringing fresh ideas to the table clearly must have been a struggle for them and everyone else.

After Seventh Son would have been a good time to have a 3-4 year hiatus to give everyone a break and pursue any solo projects but that would never work with Steve's desire to keep moving forward.

I watched the band twice in the space of a few months on the No Prayer tour and they didn't have the same spark or interaction as on previous tours. The FOTD shows I saw were a slight improvement but still lacked something. Both albums have enough great songs to make one incredible album but the level of filler is almost an embarrasment.

What we have had since the return of Adrian and Bruce is a highly rejuvenated band apparently not short of ideas and still playing to old and new fans. I don't think the stripped down sound was a purely conscious decision, more a band who didn't stop to draw a breath after being at the top of their game for so long that they didn't see what was going on around them.

I also don't believe that they harboured any ambitions to be like any of their American counterparts as they were already hugely successful and miles away from how any of those bands sounded. Brave New World was such a breath of fresh air and what has followed has been consistently good. Book Of Souls sounds very promising and the way the band are talking about it is really encouraging.

 

[Mosher Zone]

I think the sound on No Prayer is as much a progression as they had going into there Somewhere in Time period, in that period they started using Gailer Kruger amps & bringing in guitar synths etc so that was always going to sound smoother than their standard Marshall Heads from the early records. I always felt it was Adrian that pushed that stuff in so when he left & they brought in Janick who is a straight forward Strat/Marshall guy that would pave the way for Dave to get his old amps out giving the older rawer sound.

 

[Liveone]

They had taken the SSOASS and SIT sound as far as it could go.
I honestly think they just wanted to try something different..
Sadly we got the second worst Maiden album.....