Tookie Williams Case

[Anonymous]

[!--QuoteBegin-rytoda+Dec 17 2005, 07:28 AM--][div class=\'quotetop\']QUOTE(rytoda @ Dec 17 2005, 07:28 AM)[/div][div class=\'quotemain\'][!--QuoteEBegin--]Sounds like I'm not the only Republican on here.

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There are more political ideologies than Democrat/Republican.

 

[NumberoftheGaz]

Wow, lot of good debate over this one. I don't usually get too involved in this sort of thing but thought I'd share a few view on this occassion. I'm not a supporter of the death penalty in any way shape or for. However, I was discussing this matter with my girlfriend last night who feels that some criminals are beyond redemption and/or rehabilitation, as such the death penalty should apply to them. The main difference in our points of view came from our different theological positions. My girlfriend does not have any spiritual beleifs and feels that some one who has gone beyond the bounds of human decency and cannot be rehabilitated, should be served justice by his fellow man. The example she used is that many researchers into the field have concluded peadophiles cannot be rehabilitated and they carry out their crimes due to either their genetic make-up and/or society's conditioning and personal experience. As such there is something inside of them that makes them commit the worst of worse crimes and they cannot help it, as such they should be removed from society, in her opinion throug the death penalty. (Please note that my counter arguments in no way attempt to condone the actions of a peadophile, if I did agree with the death penalty, they would be first on the list).

However, I myself am a Christian and have the beleif that God will serve justice on all people in this world or the next. So someone like Tookie Williams may have gone ot his death denying he killed those people and only God will really know if he did nor not, so he'll either be forgiven and find a place in heaven or he'll burn in hell as God sees fit. However, before all you non-Christians start jumping down my throat, I am not preaching here, this is just my personal belief and contributes towards my feelings on the deth penalty.

My main gripe with the death penalty as it removes any attempt or possibility of redemption and rehabilitation. If Tookie Williams did kill those people (I am still not convinced he did, if you read up on the 'evidence' presented it is pretty borderline and the whole trial opens another can of worms over the USA justice system and the conotations of institutional racism), he is put on death row and there is no chance of him becoming a better person ans he has nothing to look forward to other than death. Why would he express any remorse for doing it, knowing it would not help him in anyway as he would still ultimately be put to death. If he has religious beleifs maybe he was personally remorseful for the sake of his soul or in an attempt for salvation, however the American justice systems bears not consideration to such things.

The odd thing in this case is, aside from the did he? didn't he? argument Tookie Williams did become rehabilitated. He has spent the last two decades of his life in prison, knowing he would ultimately be put to death and yet he has reformed his character from a notorious gang-leader capable of massive violent acts (including murder?) to one of the world's leading campaigners against gangs. He has written books and lead campaigns to prevent young people from joining gangs and helping people to leave gang lifestyles and culture. In a situation where a man has no incentive or reason to reform, in a situation where no institutional authority has attempted to rehabilitate , Tookie Williams has. For this reason I feel he should have been spared death. Even if he spent the rest of his natural life incarcerated, he was a more valuble person alive than dead. His experience and campaigns have helped thousands of young Americans avoid a similar path to his, I wonder if there will be any convincing followers able to carry his torch?

The state of California put to death a man who spent half of his life trying to stop others making the mistakes he made and trying to make society a safer and more tolerant place. On the other edge of the sword, Jon Nödtveidt of Dissection was released recentlyafter serving only 7 years for the brutal torture and execution of a man, purely becuase the man was gay and Jon doesn't like homosexuals. Since his release Jon Nödtveidt has shown no remorse for what he has done, he still preaches the same mindless rhetoric against homosexuals along with various other racist viewpoints. The sad thing is I used to really like Dissection too.

In a world accepting of the death penalty, who was less deserving to die?

 

[Anonymous]

[!--QuoteBegin-MexicanBurtReynolds+Dec 17 2005, 02:44 AM--][div class=\'quotetop\']QUOTE(MexicanBurtReynolds @ Dec 17 2005, 02:44 AM)[/div][div class=\'quotemain\'][!--QuoteEBegin--]I know this is a multicultural forum, but come on.  Here is a man who killed 4 people, laughed for close to seven minutes shortly after, and then bragged about doing it.  Of course he deserved to die, my only complaint is they did it with lethal injection, far too humane for such a criminal.  Don't let the liberal propaganda machine convince you that he had changed.  So he wrote some childrens' books and was nominated for a Nobel Peace Prize, so was Yasser Arafat, hardly a symbol of peace.  Besides, the debate over clemency was largely defined by race, very few white Americans, myself included, wanted to see him alive.  Anything that Jesse Jackson shows up to should not be taken seriously, and outside some elite African establishments, rarely is.[/quote]
As you said... this is a multicultural forum. Therefore, could you remember that what you are writing can be schocking for some readers.
I am against death penalty, I consider it of no use, statistics shows that it does not lessen the rate of murders or crimes. That's a fact.
I know that many (too many for my taste, but what) people agree with death penalty. I can cope with that.
But what you've just written here is simply racism. You don't even elaborate on a way of thinking, you only spit some propaganda and stereotypes. That's pathetic.

 

[Anonymous]

I agree with Gaz as far as possible for an atheist.

Having somewhat recovered from the shock of MexicanBurtReynolds' post, I will try to give a decent reply.

I know this is a multicultural forum, but come on.

Judgement over life and death is not a thing of culture

Here is a man who killed 4 people, laughed for close to seven minutes shortly after, and then bragged about doing it.

Were you there?

Of course he deserved to die,

I said it before and I'll say it again. Who or what gives you the right to judge over other people's lives?

my only complaint is they did it with lethal injection, far too humane for such a criminal.

This just makes me speechless. I thought for quite a while about a reply on this one, and it's just impossible.

Don't let the liberal propaganda machine convince you that he had changed.

The guy sat in prison for 26 years. That's all I can say.

So he wrote some childrens' books and was nominated for a Nobel Peace Prize,

That is more than most people, including you, I assume, have done.

so was Yasser Arafat, hardly a symbol of peace.

That is the only valid argument I have found in this post.

Besides, the debate over clemency was largely defined by race,

Maybe in your surroundings. Certainly not here.

very few white Americans, myself included, wanted to see him alive.

What do you want to say with that?

Anything that Jesse Jackson shows up to should not be taken seriously,

That is a bullshit argument. Just because Jackson uses the case to gain personal prestige does not mean the case is not serious.

and outside some elite African establishments, rarely is.

With which you show what is wrong with America.

I *tried* to give a rational and decent reply. I pardon if I have not succeeded.

EDIT: Something went wrong with the quote mechanism here. I have no idea what or why, but it (obviously) does not have any influence in the content of my post..

LC EDIT: What the fuck? Per, I'm going to report this to RW as a possible glitch. I just tried about a billion different things and no dice.

RW EDIT: I've no idea. Computer says no.

PERUN EDIT: This happens every once in a while. I've had this three or four times in the past.

 

[Anonymous]

[!--QuoteBegin-Perun+Dec 17 2005, 04:02 AM--][div class=\'quotetop\']QUOTE(Perun @ Dec 17 2005, 04:02 AM)[/div][div class=\'quotemain\'][!--QuoteEBegin--]Wow.
Just. Wow. I thought Bunkle was bad.

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I do rush into subjects without knowing the background quite fast. But better learning from mistakes than not learn at all.

 

[Anonymous]

[!--QuoteBegin-Bunkle+Dec 18 2005, 02:32 AM--][div class=\'quotetop\']QUOTE(Bunkle @ Dec 18 2005, 02:32 AM)[/div][div class=\'quotemain\'][!--QuoteEBegin--]But better learning from mistakes than not learn at all.

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A true word that is [!--emo&--][img src=\'style_emoticons/[#EMO_DIR#]/smile.gif\' border=\'0\' style=\'vertical-align:middle\' alt=\'smile.gif\' /][!--endemo--]

 

[Anonymous]

[!--QuoteBegin-MexicanBurtReynolds+Dec 17 2005, 02:44 AM--][div class=\'quotetop\']QUOTE(MexicanBurtReynolds @ Dec 17 2005, 02:44 AM)[/div][div class=\'quotemain\'][!--QuoteEBegin--]So he wrote some childrens' books and was nominated for a Nobel Peace Prize,[/quote]

[!--QuoteBegin-Perum+--][div class=\'quotetop\']QUOTE(Perum)[/div][div class=\'quotemain\'][!--QuoteEBegin--]That is more than most people, including you, I assume, have done.[/quote]

Yeah, maybe after that many years off the Goverment Teet, I could get creative too. Three squares a day, with no responsibilities, I'd be speaking multiple languages after 26 years of "hard studying". Where are you from "Back in the village?".

Not to flame here, but I see some religious arguements, are you really religious, or just pulling it out when it's convienient for you? I guess I'm Catholic, but haven't beem to Church sinch my brother's wedding, and would never pull out the religious card in an arguemnt.

[img src=\'http://images.google.com/images?q=tbn:ZJPZd2gftIlicM:www.sportsecyclopedia.com/nfl/oakland/Stableroak.jpg\' border=\'0\' alt=\'user posted image\' /]
On the 12th day, he created "The Snake"

 

[Anonymous]

[!--QuoteBegin-MexicanBurtReynolds+Dec 18 2005, 09:39 AM--][div class=\'quotetop\']QUOTE(MexicanBurtReynolds @ Dec 18 2005, 09:39 AM)[/div][div class=\'quotemain\'][!--QuoteEBegin--][!--QuoteBegin-Perum+--][div class=\'quotetop\']QUOTE(Perum)[/div][div class=\'quotemain\'][!--QuoteEBegin--]That is more than most people, including you, I assume, have done.[/quote]

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How could you possibly get my name wrong when you are quoting from my post?! [!--emo&--][img src=\'style_emoticons/[#EMO_DIR#]/blink.gif\' border=\'0\' style=\'vertical-align:middle\' alt=\'blink.gif\' /][!--endemo--]


[!--QuoteBegin--][div class=\'quotetop\']QUOTE[/div][div class=\'quotemain\'][!--QuoteEBegin--]Yeah, maybe after that many years off the Goverment Teet, I could get creative too.  Three squares a day, with no responsibilities, I'd be speaking multiple languages after 26 years of "hard studying". [/quote]

Still, those 26 years could be used for anything. If he really was such a horrible person, why would he waste his precious time on writing books that speak out against his own views?

[!--QuoteBegin--][div class=\'quotetop\']QUOTE[/div][div class=\'quotemain\'][!--QuoteEBegin--] Where are you from "Back in the village",[/quote]

The location is sort of an in-joke and intended to be understood by those who have known me and my whereabouts for the last 1 1/2 years. I have posted several times in this thread which country I live in.

[!--QuoteBegin--][div class=\'quotetop\']QUOTE[/div][div class=\'quotemain\'][!--QuoteEBegin--] I suggest you take some more lessons from the resident idiot.[/quote]

I take that as a personal insult and reported the post to a moderator.
If you insult my opinions, that is fine with me. I get carried away often enough to say "that is an idiotic opinion". However, if you go as far as insulting me personally and, basically, saying I am less than an idiot, I see the rational discussion has ended and you are attempting to provoke a flame war. You are now on my ignore list and I will not respond to any of your posts anymore.

[!--QuoteBegin--][div class=\'quotetop\']QUOTE[/div][div class=\'quotemain\'][!--QuoteEBegin--]Not to flame here, but I see some religious arguements, are you really religious, or just pulling it out when it's convienient for you?  I guess I'm Catholic, but haven't beem to Church sinch my brother's wedding, and would never pull out the religious card in an arguemnt.[/quote]

However, to enlighten you on this: No, I am not religious. However, I accept Christianity as the basis of the moral code of our society, and I accept the Bible as a proto-code of laws. The people arguing in favour of the Death Penalty are Christian more often than not, so it is only fair to show them where their ideas turn into hypocrisy.

Good day.

 

[Anonymous]

[!--QuoteBegin-MexicanBurtReynolds+Dec 18 2005, 08:39 AM--][div class=\'quotetop\']QUOTE(MexicanBurtReynolds @ Dec 18 2005, 08:39 AM)[/div][div class=\'quotemain\'][!--QuoteEBegin--]Yeah, maybe after that many years off the Goverment Teet, I could get creative too.  Three squares a day, with no responsibilities[/quote]
I can't believe it...
Have you got any brain?
What do you think prison is like? Do you think it's fun and rest there? Do you think it's a holiday's camp?
Prison IS a punishment. It's a deprivation of freedom in every possible ways : you can't go wherever you want to, you can't do whatever you want whenever you want to. You don't have any responsabilities, you don't even have free will or free choice. It's punishment enough, don't you think? (if ever you are able to do so)

 

[Anonymous]

[!--QuoteBegin-Le Hibou - The Owl+Dec 18 2005, 04:24 PM--][div class=\'quotetop\']QUOTE(Le Hibou - The Owl @ Dec 18 2005, 04:24 PM)[/div][div class=\'quotemain\'][!--QuoteEBegin--]don't you think? (if ever you are able to do so)

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Getting Owly this far is really an achievement [!--emo&--][img src=\'style_emoticons/[#EMO_DIR#]/blink.gif\' border=\'0\' style=\'vertical-align:middle\' alt=\'blink.gif\' /][!--endemo--]

 

[SinisterMinisterX]

[!--QuoteBegin-MexicanBurtReynolds+Dec 16 2005, 07:44 PM--][div class=\'quotetop\']QUOTE(MexicanBurtReynolds @ Dec 16 2005, 07:44 PM)[/div][div class=\'quotemain\'][!--QuoteEBegin--]Besides, the debate over clemency was largely defined by race, very few white Americans, myself included, wanted to see him alive.

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[/quote]
If you mean to imply that you think someone's skin color should be considered as a factor in the punishment they deserve for a crime, then you and your racism are not wanted or welcome here.

If you think you're speaking for other white people, you're not. Whether he was black, white, purple, or any other color you can name is completely irrelevant to me and to other people with a functioning brain.

In short, no further racism will be tolerated in this thread. Don't even come close to crossing the line. If I have any doubt, posts are getting deleted and warn bars will go up. If you leave me with no doubt, forget about warn bars: immediate suspension will occur.

 

[Anonymous]

[!--QuoteBegin-SinisterMinisterX+Dec 19 2005, 08:35 AM--][div class=\'quotetop\']QUOTE(SinisterMinisterX @ Dec 19 2005, 08:35 AM)[/div][div class=\'quotemain\'][!--QuoteEBegin--]In short, no further racism will be tolerated in this thread.

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Or anywhere else for that matter. I am not a moderator, so I have no possibility to act against racist posts, but I can and will voice my opinion on them.