Naval blockades are legal in international waters if they meet certain conditions.
The Mavi Marmara incident.
- Thread starter Mega
- Start date
Ah, gotcha. Thanks, I started to think that was what he meant, but hadn't ever heard that.
Still, odd set-up.
Still, odd set-up.
Nigel Tufnel
Ancient Mariner
Egypt also recognizes it. They are an active partner with Israel..or were until this incident.LooseCannon said:
Yeah. Still, Egypt didn't have a ship flagged in the armada. I think that counts.
pilau
Nomad
I would like to share with you my take on this, including interpretation of videos on YouTube. I am going to elaborate only on the flotilla case and not about the Arab-Israeli conflict, as debates around this subject can go on forever, just like the conflict. However, some background information must be delivered for thorough understanding on the going-ons.
Disclaimer: Believe me, please - I am not a political person by nature. I am not so interested in politics and I have never taken a side to left-wing or right-wing agendas as a mindset to the way I think and develop my opinions. I try to investigate on a case-by-case basis, research different sources from all around the world (wonders of the internet) and not just the local media. I am really looking at this (as far as I am concerned) from the most objective angle.
Let us begin with the legitimacy of the Israeli blockade and boarding of the flotilla ships, which was first and foremost justified by international maritime law, and here is a Reuters article that confirms this: http://www.reuters.com/article/idUSTRE65133D20100602
Before we continue there are some basic facts people outside of Israel and Gaza are probably not aware of, and need to take into account:
I am trying to convey to you that the entity known as Hamas is in no way whatsoever fulfilling it's responsibility for the civilians living in the Gaza strip. Not only they prevent them from humanitarian service and supplies, but they are also inflicting a terror regime on the civilians of Gaza, so they will be able to maintain control of the strip with no interruption from depressed civilians. What do I mean? Here - take a look at these videos here, posted online but Palestinians and Arabs, not by Israeli media. The first two are a must! They tell the story in the best way possible:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=I1M4eH9Kk7I
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zpFaa80FpIQ
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MAR_Iwq9-R0
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BoH19b1TrZo
The bottom line is that Hamas is a terror organization, currently the ruling entity in Gaza, cares not for the civilians and the humanitarian situation in the strip which they are responsible for, while it's only goal is to bring down the state of Israel.
Tomorrow I will finish the rest of this post, enough typing for today
Disclaimer: Believe me, please - I am not a political person by nature. I am not so interested in politics and I have never taken a side to left-wing or right-wing agendas as a mindset to the way I think and develop my opinions. I try to investigate on a case-by-case basis, research different sources from all around the world (wonders of the internet) and not just the local media. I am really looking at this (as far as I am concerned) from the most objective angle.
Let us begin with the legitimacy of the Israeli blockade and boarding of the flotilla ships, which was first and foremost justified by international maritime law, and here is a Reuters article that confirms this: http://www.reuters.com/article/idUSTRE65133D20100602
Before we continue there are some basic facts people outside of Israel and Gaza are probably not aware of, and need to take into account:
- Israel is a sovereign state, regardless whether some of you might object the fact it exists.
- Gaza is of course not a territory of Israel whatsoever. For evidence - the 2004-05 disengagement plan, in which Israel's security forces (including the IDF, Israeli police, Israeli prison service, border police and home front command) took part in evicting Jewish Israeli citizens (around 2,000 families) who based their life and economy there (I am not saying that basing their life there is justified, only so you get the emotional and nation-wide effects of the eviction).
- Right after the end of the eviction operations, Hamas, which is a terror organization took over the strip. They used all kinds of violence against citizen's in Gaza, against opposing party Fatah and even against Christians living in the Gaza strip as they base their operations over fundamentalist Islam ideas. You can read all about that here: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gaza_Strip#Conditions_after_the_Hamas_take-over
- Since Israel has left the strip each day 20-100 (depending on the time we are talking about) truckloads of humanitarian, medical and construction equipment, food, goods and clothing enter the strip, under supervision of an non-governmental unit with observation by UN officials.
- Hamas takes over those trucks and prevents the vital cargo from arriving freely to human-rights organizations in the strip and to civilian hands, thus only intensifying the humanitarian issues in the strip.
- During this period, Hamas fired many rockets and mortar bombs into Israeli territory, purposely at civilian towns near the Gaza strip areas. The amounts are so vast that on 2008, it was an average of 300 rockets and mortars a month, a whooping 10 attacks a day! Imagine, for example, what would happen if Belgium fired 10 rockets at civilian areas in east France a day, killing civilian and damaging civilian property. How would France and the international community react? http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Rock_mort_gaza_2008.JPG
- During Hamas reign of terror in the Strip they have dug underground transportation tunnels to sneak into the strip arms, ammunition, rockets and beyond that cement and steel to build and fortify a network of bunkers built for Hamas officials and commanders during times of war. If you will research a bit you will find out that during operation Cast Lead (Dec 2008-Jan 2009) Hamas officials and commanders went underground to protect themselves from Israeli attacks, leaving lower-positioned Hamas people and soldiers and the rest of their strip on their own with no political or military leadership.
- As of today, still several rockets are fired each month to Israel, at civilian targets.
I am trying to convey to you that the entity known as Hamas is in no way whatsoever fulfilling it's responsibility for the civilians living in the Gaza strip. Not only they prevent them from humanitarian service and supplies, but they are also inflicting a terror regime on the civilians of Gaza, so they will be able to maintain control of the strip with no interruption from depressed civilians. What do I mean? Here - take a look at these videos here, posted online but Palestinians and Arabs, not by Israeli media. The first two are a must! They tell the story in the best way possible:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=I1M4eH9Kk7I
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zpFaa80FpIQ
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MAR_Iwq9-R0
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BoH19b1TrZo
The bottom line is that Hamas is a terror organization, currently the ruling entity in Gaza, cares not for the civilians and the humanitarian situation in the strip which they are responsible for, while it's only goal is to bring down the state of Israel.
Tomorrow I will finish the rest of this post, enough typing for today
Well, I absolutely agree that Hamas is a terrorist organization. As I talked about in the other Israel post, I think Israel has the right to defend itself from attack by Hamas. And that Hamas is interested only in using Gaza as a recruitment ground for their organization. But Hamas is also the elected government somehow, and that scares me too.
OK, I am unclear here (very sorry).. is Gaza part of Israel, or is it some sort of sovereign entity?
Forostar
Ancient Mariner
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gaza_Strip
It's a piece of land, stuck between Egypt, Israel and the (infamous) sea.
After the recent raid, Egypt opened its borders, and (most of) the rest of the world wants Israel to drop their blockade. The blockade has been criticized by UN Secretary-General Ban Ki-moon, the United Nations Human Rights Council and other human rights organizations. E.g. Amnesty International said that “The blockade constitutes collective punishment under international law and must be lifted immediately.” And that as the occupying power, Israel has a duty under international law to ensure the welfare of Gaza’s inhabitants, including their rights to health, education, food and adequate housing.
It is officially supported by the United States. However, the raid complicates Obama's efforts to move ahead on Middle East peace negotiations and introduced a new strain into an already tense relationship between the United States and Israel.
More info on the blockade. -> click
Egyptian arguments
Israelian arguments
Legal arguments
International positions
It's a piece of land, stuck between Egypt, Israel and the (infamous) sea.
After the recent raid, Egypt opened its borders, and (most of) the rest of the world wants Israel to drop their blockade. The blockade has been criticized by UN Secretary-General Ban Ki-moon, the United Nations Human Rights Council and other human rights organizations. E.g. Amnesty International said that “The blockade constitutes collective punishment under international law and must be lifted immediately.” And that as the occupying power, Israel has a duty under international law to ensure the welfare of Gaza’s inhabitants, including their rights to health, education, food and adequate housing.
It is officially supported by the United States. However, the raid complicates Obama's efforts to move ahead on Middle East peace negotiations and introduced a new strain into an already tense relationship between the United States and Israel.
More info on the blockade. -> click
Egyptian arguments
Israelian arguments
Legal arguments
International positions
Yes.
So it is under Israel's influence, tho not specifically ruled by it. How....odd. So its kinda like Puerto Rico for the US? ...of a sort.
Kinda.
I'll type more out once I get home. This is too complex to explain between doing stuff at work.
I'll type more out once I get home. This is too complex to explain between doing stuff at work.
Sure, its cool-- thanks to both Foro and you, LC!
I had originally thought it was a province (or some such) of Israel, but now realize it is more 'external' than that.
I had originally thought it was a province (or some such) of Israel, but now realize it is more 'external' than that.
Basically Gaza is 1/2 of the area of Israel mostly inhabited by Palestinians. It's a huge clusterfuck but originally Israel and Palestine were going to be different countries but there was a war and that ended. Now Palestinians think they deserve to own all of Israel and some Israelis think they deserve all of Palestine. As a result the Palestinians are allowed to kinda govern themselves but not really. The West Bank is better than Gaza but still pretty rough.
Mega said:
Ahem... Everytime I say Israel somebody tells me to make a clear distinction between Israeli people and government. I am also constantly being reminded that not all the people in Israel think alike, even though my arguments reflect that. Anyway, I try to minimize any misunderstanding that can be originated by the fact that English is not my native language.
But... "We"? Who we?
I know MANY Israeli people who don't think like that. Don't impose your ideas as if ALL ISRAEL thinks like you, as if its a monolithic entity.
Anyway, it's aalways the other who needs to open up his mind...
And "them"? Who them?
Hamas? El-Fetih? PLO? Palestinians who live in Gaza? Palestinians who live in West Bank? All the palestinians?
Do you even know what all these different people want?
Do you even know how people live Gaza? I don't think you do because you think that there is no humanitarian crisis in Gaza...
Boy, they are such a spoiled people! They just can't be happy!
Wasted CLV said:
Uhm, not at all. more like Indian reservations. Especially in its current state.
pilau said:Tomorrow I will finish the rest of this post, enough typing for today
I hope you will also mention that Hamas was initially an Israeli (I mean government, just in case somebody objects) pet project allowed to develop under control (not through direct control) to weaken PLO, weaken Palestinians by creating an internal conflict among them. Israeli government also wanted to demonize and marginalize Palestinians in the eyes of the world as religious lunatics. That's a secret that everybody who really digs the topic knows.
It's just like Afghan resistance, which was a pet project of USA against Russia during cold war. We all know how the story progressed through time.
PS: Let me help you with your research with this WSJ article (which is a republican newspaper, a supporter of Israel)
http://online.wsj.com/article/SB123275572295011847.html
Dr. Eddies Wingman
Brighter than thousand_suns
Speaking of Gaza: I get it that its status is somewhat debated, as to whether it is actually occupied or not? I mean, Israeli soldiers are not located on there.
Things are a bit simpler regarding the West Bank - it is under de facto occupation, but with a limited self-governance.
I just wonder about one thing: After Israel withdrew their forces from the Gaza strip, Hamas took control there, when they were in fact supposed to share power with Fatah (the self-governance authorities of the Palestinians are a coalition, right?). Now, with Hamas being in control there, there surely is a lot of trouble. The offensive in 2009 was more bloody than the last few years of de facto occupation had been. This takes us to my question:
Wouldn't it be better for Israel to actually re-occupy the Gaza strip? This would allow them to lift the blockade, also on building materials, so that the civilians in Gaza could rebuild their homes, schools, hospitals and so on. I guess it would also be better for the civilians being under Israeli rule than under Hamas ... at least for those who don't support Hamas.
Things are a bit simpler regarding the West Bank - it is under de facto occupation, but with a limited self-governance.
I just wonder about one thing: After Israel withdrew their forces from the Gaza strip, Hamas took control there, when they were in fact supposed to share power with Fatah (the self-governance authorities of the Palestinians are a coalition, right?). Now, with Hamas being in control there, there surely is a lot of trouble. The offensive in 2009 was more bloody than the last few years of de facto occupation had been. This takes us to my question:
Wouldn't it be better for Israel to actually re-occupy the Gaza strip? This would allow them to lift the blockade, also on building materials, so that the civilians in Gaza could rebuild their homes, schools, hospitals and so on. I guess it would also be better for the civilians being under Israeli rule than under Hamas ... at least for those who don't support Hamas.