The Love and Hate of Metallica

Cody Cameron

Cody Cameron

Godzilla Freak
Okay guys, there is something I'd like to get off my chest...

First off, I am a huge Metallica fan! They introduced me to the metal scene in high school and I've been hooked ever since. I love their old stuff, Death Magnetic, and even some things off Load and ReLoad. To me, they are my heroes!

However, I've noticed a lot of hatred towards Metallica within the metal community. Now, I understand that they have done a lot of questionable things...

1) Cutting their hair all at once
2) Doing some questionable song writing in the 90s
3) No solos in St. Anger (I blame Bob Rock for that)
4) Suing Napster
5) Lulu

But aside those things, I've never seen soo much hatred towards a band like this. And it's not even anger that has meaning behind it. It's just a bunch of angry metalheads saying ignorant things like "They suck!" or "They can't write good sh-t anymore!" and they bitch and complain on and on about how they want Kill 'em All part 2, 3, and 4.

So since all of you Maiden fans are very nice and respectful (and awesome as hell), I was wondering if I could ask all of you why there is soo much ignorant hatred towards Metallica?
 
I like Metallica, I'll respond to these:

1) Cutting their hair all at once-I don't why anyone should care. I have to wonder if the hair thing would still be brought up if they did that when an album that wasn't such a large departure from their thrash sound was made.
2) Doing some questionable song writing in the 90s-And this is why I don't like them as much. I can't get into anything after AJFA. There is good stuff here and there, but nothing that stands up to those early albums.
3) No solos in St. Anger (I blame Bob Rock for that)-Meh, St. Anger had plenty of other problems. Kirk's solos are mediocre at best, I don't really care if a Metallica song has a solo or not. Of course there are songs with great solos that wouldn't be the same without them, Master of Puppets jumps to mind.
4) Suing Napster-Definitely.
5) Lulu-I'm a LuLu fan. In a weird way. I don't think the music is very good, but I was able to respect it. They tried something new and it didn't work. Now they won't do it again. I'm all for experimentation.
 
The hatred probably comes from those who grew up with Metallica. Those who didn't like the hair metal stuff that dominated the US at the time and saw the thrash wave (of which Metallica were of course one of the main bands) as something they could relate much more to.

To those, thrash metal more or less defined their identity as metalheads - and I can see how the album Metallica felt like the band just left them. Like a break-up, if you wish.

I don't think the five points you mention have so much to do with each other in terms of estranging fans. Certainly, none of the points would bring any fans back, and for those who really despise Metallica I guess each of the points are valid reasons for vitriol.

Finally: Remember that metalheads as a group are just like other large groups of people. You have the really intelligent ones, you have normal people, and you have knobheads. I assume that you find Metallica fans and haters alike in all three groups. And particularly in the knobhead group, people tend to be very tribalistic about the bands they love (and hate). Hence unintelligent comments like "they suck".

My advice? Stop caring about the idiots. It is much more rewarding to engage in discussion with people who can come up with arguments backing up their opinion.
 
I think this is going into the direction that EW pointed. The thrash wave in which Metallica originated was a movement that we would consider as underground. The idea was that the only difference between the guys in the audience and the ones on stage was that those on stage were performing and the others weren't. There was no barrier between musicians and the audience, and it was all about musical expression of rebellion and non-conformity. It was all about being part of something that most other people don't understand and listening to music most others would probably not even identify as such - and yet being able to point out that there is something of artistic value going on if you were ready to listen.

I think what frustrated people the most was when Metallica were singled out and picked up by the mainstream media. There is always a certain bond between a fan and a band he discovered by himself and that he has followed in tiny clubs, watching them evolve and grow. In a club of maybe a hundred or two hundred people, there is an intimate feeling. The long-standing fans of such a band usually know each other and probably also know the band themselves. There is a sort of feeling that band and fans are going through something together, and many devoted fans will advertise gigs themselves for no other purpose than just get a few more people to know them.

I suppose that when Metallica got played on the radio and became the single most recognised metal band, this bond was destroyed. People who discovered Metallica for themselves suddenly lost the feeling of having something precious, something that belongs only to themselves. Of course, Metallica had been big by metal terms for quite some time, but suddenly, non-metal heads and trendy teenagers who had no idea what metal was about were listening to them. The next step is that the band changed their sound. People accused them of adapting to mainstream tastes and thus becoming commercial.

For me personally, I'm a typical metalhead in the sense that I prefer the very early stuff to anything else they did. Ride the Lightning is an amazing album that still holds up against almost everything out there. But I actually don't think that Metallica is such a great band, and it never was. Their biggest flaw, in my opinion, is that they have never been extraordinary songwriters, and more often than not, their songs are too long without enough change to keep it interesting. That is what, in my opinion, killed Death Magnetic. It could have been a good album if most of the songs were about half as long. In quite a few cases, I thought to myself "now that was a pretty decent song" until the song didn't stop, but nothing really happened - only another verse and chorus was pasted on. I also don't get the rage with Master of Puppets. It's a pretty good album with a couple of amazing songs, but in general, I don't see anything extraordinarily special about it that would warrant its reputation. To me, Metallica is mostly Ride the Lightning, a bit of Kill 'em all and Master of Puppets, and then everything else.

About St. Anger, I can't speak for others, but there were two things that annoyed me about the album. The first thing are the snare drums. I know it sounds like picking, but they really make the album unlistenable for me. The second thing is that everything just sounds like some guy who has been pushed too far and just starts screaming and beating around him in an uncontrollable rage fit. I like expressionist art, but I think there is a difference in channelling your emotions, and just biting your pillow.
 
I believe I've said this before on this forum, here it comes again : Metallica are underrated because of their overratedness. Let me explain.

They simply crashed into the scene back in the 80's and the movement which they were leading came up with a fresh, powerful sound. They had amazing four albums, Kill'em All is one of the best debut albums of all time, Ride the Lightning simply is a masterpiece, Master of Puppets is a great album and so is ...And Justice for All. They had rage, they wanted the rule the world and they were young.

Then, with the commercial success of ...And Justice for All, especially the single One, they stepped into a more mainstream style. And for me, that's fine. I wouldn't like another thrash album from Metallica as the fifth release, they had to come up with something fresh. A groove oriented, straight-forward heavy metal album was a fine thing. They also made money a lot, as we all know. Load and ReLoad were released in a total pressure. Metallica were getting bigger and bigger, the fans wanted new stuff, the media wanted new stuff and band had problems at the time. That's why there's a five year gap between the fifth and sixth releases. Load and ReLoad are way below the qualities of the first five, but that's still fine, they didn't overkill themselves once again.

In my case, you can't consider St. Anger as a proper release. It was the bridge that led them to their new, refreshed sound which is showcased on Death Magnetic. Lars Ulrich said "If there wasn't for St. Anger, Metallica wouldn't have been together right now" or something like that. They had huge problems, Napster stuff, departure of Jason, James' theraphy and personal problems and everything. It was a terrible record, but still, there's a reason why it was terrible.

Death Magnetic was a release with no "we-want-money" style approach, they only cared about the music on that release and they succeeded in my case.

You can say "Metallica sold out" , you can say "Metallica are not so good" , you can say "Metallica sucked after AFJA" , but you can't say "Metallica are not big" at the moment. Metallica are the biggest band in heavy metal right now and considering the bands which are still together, they maybe are the biggest rock band in the world. Even the ones who don't care about rock know their name. Hell, here in Turkey the ones who aren't aware of the heavy metal music and consider it as a sign of devil, call heavy metal, "Metallica music". It may sound funny, but that's true.

Now onto your points :

1. Hair is not that big of a thing. It doesn't effect the music, Bruce Dickinson cut his hair too, but he continued to rock and got even better, I believe.
2. Questionable ? They had some nice songs but most of their songs were mediocre or just plain bad. If Load and ReLoad were released as a one album and it had the best 10 songs of those albums, fans wouldn't hate them so much.
3. Bob Rock has nothing to do with it, he can't say "Don't put solos on the record." That has got to be James' and Lars' idea. Like I said before, St. Anger had many problems. No-solo thing was on their path. If you've ever watched the documentary Some Kind of Monster, Bob Rock talked about how they wanted the make the band sound as though they're only getting together for the first time in a garage. Kirk Hammett doesn't improvise his solos and playing for the first time in a garage wouldn't have solos if there were no improvising.
4. I don't really care about it. A band can defend their rights of music, that's fine in my case. Every band is not Iron Maiden. I wouldn't like being not able to download free stuff, though.
5. I respect Lulu, fabulous experiment and I believe it has added some elements to the band, too. They sounded inspired on that release.
 
No hatred from my side. I am just not so over the moon by their music, released after Cliff died.
I admit I still didn't check ...And Justice For All in its entirety (I am just not eager to do it), and I did like quite a few songs from the Black Album but it's still in a different league, compared to the earlier albums.

Still I'd like to see them live one day (hopefully in combination with other cool bands on a festival) because they are flexible with their setlist.
 
I think it's pretty simple and Wingman summed it well.
The 80s Metallica fan identified with the band more than any fans of any act I can think of.
It was us against the world.
Then Metallica won the world, but their fans didn't.
They got left behind like the small town high school sweetheart.
No surprise there is bitterness.
 
I still prefer Megadeth and Slayer when it comes to The Big 4.
Mostly because both of them have better musicians (especially drummers :p), don't have Lulu or St. Anger (though Risk is even worse than Lulu), sound better live etc.
The only thing Metallica does better than Slayer and Megadeth is writing long, epic songs, like The Call Of Ktulu, ...And Justice For All, One etc.
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I read Mustaine's autobiography, and I kinda understand why he hated Metallica guys for so long. Some examples: they kicked him out of the band and sent him from New Jersey to LA (or San Francisco, not sure) without any money on a 3-day trip, no reasons specified, and hired Kirk while Dave was still in the band. He told them not to use his songs, yet they still did it. In 1995, Metallica and Megadeth played on the same festival. Dave was trying to sober up (from heroin, cocaine, alcohol etc.). Metallica guys invited him to their backstage, where they teased him with a huge pile of drugs. Later, when they were filming Some Kind Of Monster, he told them not to use footage where he appears, yet they still did it.
 
About Mustaine... it's really great to see that after soo many years these bands can put aside their differences and become buddies again. In fact I heard that Dave wanted to do a side-project with Lars, James and the members of Slayer and Anthrax (another one of my favorite bands). So yeah, that's always great.

As for those points, I only mentioned them because they are frequently brought up by knuckleheads who only sit and complain on the forums while they're STILL jerking off listening to Kill 'em All. I remember a video talking about how metalheads are a culture who do NOT like change at all. It's they're way or "it's gay" (as some like to put it. I'm not homophobic. hahaha)
Either way, I still love Metallica with all my headbanging soul! And will rock out to pretty much anything they put out. Why? Because I don't give a fuck (which is what metal is all about and yet some metal fans forget that).

By the way, thank you all for your great replies so far. It's great to have an actual conversation over this matter. I guess this is why Iron Maiden fans are awesome!!!
 
Forostar said:
No hatred from my side. I am just not so over the moon by their music, released after Cliff died.
I admit I still didn't check ...And Justice For All in its entirety (I am just not eager to do it), and I did like quite a few songs from the Black Album but it's still in a different league, compared to the earlier albums.
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It's a grower, it really suffers the long song problem that Metallica tends to have. But I can't stand the lack of bass, it almost makes the album unlistenable.
 
Mosh said:
It's a grower, it really suffers the long song problem that Metallica tends to have. But I can't stand the lack of bass, it almost makes the album unlistenable.
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To each his own. As for me, ...And Justice For All is actually my favorite album because it was the first one I bought. Plus The Shortest Straw and the Frayed Ends of Sanity are two of my favorite tracks.
 
Hair cutting should never be an issue when deciding whether or not you like a band. The main question is do you like their music? For me, I've never liked Metallica. The main problem being James Hetfield cannot sing. He can growl and make angry noises but I like my singers to be able to, you know, sing. I can see why they're the biggest metal band in the world and I certainly don't have a problem with them, they just don't do anything for me personally.
 
For me, the hatred comes from their music, attitude and because they are hugely overrated, it frustrates me immensely that they have overshadowed pretty much every heavy metal band from the 80's.

Their music lacks melody, Lars' drumming is so bad, it's the main reason I hate their music, it just takes over everything, he just bashes out simple beats, it gives me a fucking headache. I do like James' voice on the first album, but it ends there.... Oh and one more thing, that Cliff guy gets so much credit, he gets so much praise, for doing what? I ask, it makes me sad that he is far more appreciated than Harris....

When someone asks you what music your into, and you say "80's metal", 9 out of 10 times they'll reply with "oh so you like Metallica" even though your wearing a Maiden shirt..... That's why I hate them, cause they don't deserve what they have, where as bands 10 times better than them are lucky to get half of the attention.

And I'll always hate them for what they did to Dave.
 
I do respect your opinion Seventh Son, I do. :)

But do keep in mind that a lot of the stuff you complain about (like James' singing and Lars' drumming) was toned down during their 90s stuff like Load and ReLoad. I actually believe that during the mid 90s was when James' voice was actually at its best! But yet people complain about those albums the most. So I guess there are both sides of the spectrum, but as a Metallica fan... it's confusing sometimes.
 
Sometimes James sounds good, sometimes he doesn't. At least that's how I feel.
 
Agreed. I think when he screams he sounds bad, but when he takes the time to let his voice flow, he sounds great.
 
Night Prowler said:
I still prefer Megadeth and Slayer when it comes to The Big 4.
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The Big Four... that term unfortunately overshadows Exodus. If there were only four, they should belong there.
Seventh Son said:
Their music lacks melody,
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Their old albums didn't. Ever listened to the beautiful melodies and harmonies on e.g. Fade to Black? The last minute of that song especially.
Seventh Son said:
Oh and one more thing, that Cliff guy gets so much credit, he gets so much praise, for doing what? I ask, it makes me sad that he is far more appreciated than Harris....
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I just explained that I like the albums with Cliff more than the albums without Cliff. That's not because I am constantly busy with the person Cliff. The simple reason is that I find the music better. I assume it's no coincidence that things changed since he died.
Seventh Son said:
I ask, it makes me sad that he is far more appreciated than Harris....
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Maybe it depends on where you're looking for that appreciation. I remember that I read in Dutch metal mag Aardschok, that Harris was chosen as best bassist, year after year.
Seventh Son said:
When someone asks you what music your into, and you say "80's metal", 9 out of 10 times they'll reply with "oh so you like Metallica" even though your wearing a Maiden shirt..... That's why I hate them, cause they don't deserve what they have, where as bands 10 times better than them are lucky to get half of the attention.

And I'll always hate them for what they did to Dave.
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Now are these the real reasons? Might be in the way when you want to judge music.
 
Seventh Son said:
Their music lacks melody
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Really ? Wow. To say something like that, you must have never listened to the album Ride the Lightning.

There are a lot of people here who don't really care about Metallica, I see. Well, I do. They're my fifth favorite band and I love their stuff. James CAN sing, if you don't like the band because of his singing, you may not like Megadeth, too, because James is a far superior vocalist to Dave.

Also, I don't find Lars' drumming irritating. Apart from ...And Justice for All, he always wrote parts with basic stuff. (keep in mind that AFJA was the only album which required some highly technical drumming) But that actually fits Metallica in my case, because their music is highly guitar oriented. A highly technical drummer wouldn't fit Metallica, trust me.
 
The Flash said:
Really ? Wow. To say something like that, you must have never listened to the album Ride the Lightning.
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I'm with Seventh Son on this. I think he's paraphrasing. There is plenty of melody but the delivery is too aggressive most of the time and many of us find it funny. It's well played and a lot of work goes into it but it doesn't alter the fact that some of us find Metallica and bands of their ilk kind of amusing.
 
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