Question about NO PRAYER album
- Thread starter averycopeland
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CriedWhenBrucieLeft
Meme Only Account
Clear maybe; but ultimately not useful. Okay. Finished now! 
CriedWhenBrucieLeft
Meme Only Account
Also Forostar --nobody said a damn thing about your imaginative reconstruction of the writing of No More Lies! 
vomit
Invader
This is one of the best things about music Ihave read in a LONG time. I am hear to tell you, I could have written what you have.....I agree 100%. I used to have so much passion for new music, metal, etc. All the distractions of the time (internet, Ipods, etc.) has changed me forever. With the advent of digital music, I rarely listen to a whole album anymore....which is really kind of stupid.
averycopeland
Invader
This is one of the reasons why I kinda remain a stubborn old curmudgeon when it comes to music.
I still insist on buying CDs and listening to albums.
Hearing a bunch of random single songs is OK, but it ultimately feels disjointed and just doesn't connect with me on the same level.
To be honest, I don't think that is a very good excuse. I listen to most of my music on the computer and the portable MP3 player, and I still almost exclusively listen to full albums. Just because there is a 'shuffle' button doesn't mean you have to use it.
vomit
Invader
Yes sir. For whatever reason, when I am in the house I listen to albums, in the vehicle the iPod is on shuffle.
Andrew
Prowler
An interesting thread and in many ways an appropriate place to make my first post 
First of all, some background so that you know I'm not some kid who just got into Maiden last week.
The first Maiden song I ever heard was 'Prowler' shortly after the first Maiden album was released. It changed my life and I've followed Maiden ever since. I saw them live for the first time on the Killers world tour and I've seen them almost every time they've been on tour since. Getting into Maiden also inspired me to start playing guitar, which is something I still do today in a band of my own.
Adrian Smith seems to me to be a subject of some controversy in this thread so I'll give my take on him as a songwriter and a guitarist.
Guitarist
On the 'Killers' album Adrian was a really good guitarist but probably not in Dave's league. Over the years a lot has changed. Dave Murray essentially plays the same way and to the same standard as he did back in the 1980s, which is good but he certainly hasn't developed as a guitarist. Adrian on the other hand has changed an awful lot. His repertoire of techniques now far surpasses Dave's and he has a strong command of all these techniques and styles. Melody is an important part of his style and that's why most of his solos are the most memorable on an album. Dave widdles and so does Janick to a degree but Adrian's solos are crafted and not a note is wasted. You can tell that Gary Moore has been a major influence. There is no doubt in my mind that right now, Adrian is the most complete guitarist in the band and without him, Maiden would suffer. I don't just rate him as the best guitarist in Maiden by some margin, I actually think he's one of the most underrated guitarists in the world.
Songwriter
As others have said, Adrian is undoubtedly the one most open to new ideas and experimentation. His early songs were good and they got steadily better as the years went by, to the point where he was writing the best songs on the albums. Certainly on 'Somewhere in Time', 'Wasted Years' and 'Stranger in a Strange Land' were the stand out tracks and let's face it, they were up against some stiff competition. His influence continued on 'Seventh Son' and to this day, I view that as their greatest achievement; not because it had all the best songs, but because it was their most ambitious and creative album and it became so much greater than the sum of its parts. To this day, I only listen to that album if I can hear it all, in order, in one listening. I have no doubt that Maiden wouldn't have gone that far in that direction if it wasn't for Adrian. I won't speculate why he left after that album but there is no doubt that Maiden suffered very badly once he'd gone. On 'No Prayer For The Dying' and 'Fear of the Dark' there were some great individual tracks but overall the albums were desperately weak. With the exception of the title track, 'Fear of the Dark is my least favourite Maiden album. I think Bruce knew it wasn't the same after Adrian had gone and when he left it came as no surprise to me. To be honest it was a relief as he was awful on his last tour and the farewell tour they did for him was frankly embarrassing he was so disinterested.
I hated 'X-Factor' when I first heard it but now it's one of my favourites but 'Virtual XI' was a band out of ideas and inspiration. Some of those songs were so repetitive it really felt like they were padding it all out to fill up the time. Bruce has said that he wouldn't have rejoined Maiden if Adrian hadn't rejoined too and I think that tells its own story. Adrian returned and we got 'Brave New Word' which was a fantastic album and they've got stronger and stronger ever since as Adrian's influence has increased. I think it's significant that Adrian has so many credits on 'Final Frontier' and I certainly hope that nobody in the band tries to inhibit his creativity because he gives Maiden their spark. Don't think I'm rubbishing Steve because he IS Maiden but increasingly, Adrian is the creativity in the band.
I don't know why they made the poor decision to go in a different direction after 'Seventh Son' but I hope to God they don't repeat that mistake. They're too old now to spend a few years apart and come back again so if Adrian were to leave again now, Maiden would be finished for me because I think if Adrian left, Bruce would go too very quickly. Bruce knows how good Adrian is.
First of all, some background so that you know I'm not some kid who just got into Maiden last week.The first Maiden song I ever heard was 'Prowler' shortly after the first Maiden album was released. It changed my life and I've followed Maiden ever since. I saw them live for the first time on the Killers world tour and I've seen them almost every time they've been on tour since. Getting into Maiden also inspired me to start playing guitar, which is something I still do today in a band of my own.
Adrian Smith seems to me to be a subject of some controversy in this thread so I'll give my take on him as a songwriter and a guitarist.
Guitarist
On the 'Killers' album Adrian was a really good guitarist but probably not in Dave's league. Over the years a lot has changed. Dave Murray essentially plays the same way and to the same standard as he did back in the 1980s, which is good but he certainly hasn't developed as a guitarist. Adrian on the other hand has changed an awful lot. His repertoire of techniques now far surpasses Dave's and he has a strong command of all these techniques and styles. Melody is an important part of his style and that's why most of his solos are the most memorable on an album. Dave widdles and so does Janick to a degree but Adrian's solos are crafted and not a note is wasted. You can tell that Gary Moore has been a major influence. There is no doubt in my mind that right now, Adrian is the most complete guitarist in the band and without him, Maiden would suffer. I don't just rate him as the best guitarist in Maiden by some margin, I actually think he's one of the most underrated guitarists in the world.
Songwriter
As others have said, Adrian is undoubtedly the one most open to new ideas and experimentation. His early songs were good and they got steadily better as the years went by, to the point where he was writing the best songs on the albums. Certainly on 'Somewhere in Time', 'Wasted Years' and 'Stranger in a Strange Land' were the stand out tracks and let's face it, they were up against some stiff competition. His influence continued on 'Seventh Son' and to this day, I view that as their greatest achievement; not because it had all the best songs, but because it was their most ambitious and creative album and it became so much greater than the sum of its parts. To this day, I only listen to that album if I can hear it all, in order, in one listening. I have no doubt that Maiden wouldn't have gone that far in that direction if it wasn't for Adrian. I won't speculate why he left after that album but there is no doubt that Maiden suffered very badly once he'd gone. On 'No Prayer For The Dying' and 'Fear of the Dark' there were some great individual tracks but overall the albums were desperately weak. With the exception of the title track, 'Fear of the Dark is my least favourite Maiden album. I think Bruce knew it wasn't the same after Adrian had gone and when he left it came as no surprise to me. To be honest it was a relief as he was awful on his last tour and the farewell tour they did for him was frankly embarrassing he was so disinterested.
I hated 'X-Factor' when I first heard it but now it's one of my favourites but 'Virtual XI' was a band out of ideas and inspiration. Some of those songs were so repetitive it really felt like they were padding it all out to fill up the time. Bruce has said that he wouldn't have rejoined Maiden if Adrian hadn't rejoined too and I think that tells its own story. Adrian returned and we got 'Brave New Word' which was a fantastic album and they've got stronger and stronger ever since as Adrian's influence has increased. I think it's significant that Adrian has so many credits on 'Final Frontier' and I certainly hope that nobody in the band tries to inhibit his creativity because he gives Maiden their spark. Don't think I'm rubbishing Steve because he IS Maiden but increasingly, Adrian is the creativity in the band.
I don't know why they made the poor decision to go in a different direction after 'Seventh Son' but I hope to God they don't repeat that mistake. They're too old now to spend a few years apart and come back again so if Adrian were to leave again now, Maiden would be finished for me because I think if Adrian left, Bruce would go too very quickly. Bruce knows how good Adrian is.
Forostar
Ancient Mariner
Welcome Andrew.
I find Adrian's solos on Killers much more memorable than his on The Number of the Beast.
His solo on Hallowed is weak and apart from a few nice moments on 22, The Prisoner and Children of the Damned there isn't much to write home about. His licks in Wrathchild, his sparkling solos in The Ides of March and Prodigal Son... now we're talking. However, I admit that Adrian became better and this can already be heard on Piece of Mind.
Never thought he was "better" than Dave. Dave's solos kept being entertaining and imo it wasn't til The Final Frontier when Adrian clearly, really had nicer solos than the other two guitarists. Alright, on Somewhere in Time, Adrian might have outshined Dave a bit, but probably because he did more solos. Dave's intro solo from Deja-vu and his great runs on Caught Somewhere in Time and Heaven Can Wait are as memorable as Adrians best solos (bar his on Sea of Madness), I think.
Dave always sounded like the one who played with more ease. It's not that this was better thing, it's just very nice to have that besides Adrian's constructed solos. Dave was the one with the fluent touch, and the brighter sound. Take his slow solo on Powerslave or e.g. his solos on Judas My Guide or Weekend Warrior (check that build-up!). I could go on for a while. Very good stuff. Janick did some really nice things as well. E.g. The Clansman, Ghost of the Navigator, The Pilgrim and The Legacy have solos that I enjoy very, very much.
I'd say there were experimental things going on in the nineties (though not per se on Virtual XI, or on No Prayer, if one sees that one as a "return" to raw sound).
Not at all. I find Sea of Madness the best song from Somewhere in Time, but his other two I do not rate higher than Deja-vu or any of the Harris songs (apart from Heaven Can Wait). Actually, Adrian was the best songwriter on The Final Frontier, and he wrote one of the best songs on Dance of Death (I still think the title track is better though), but on all other albums, other people wrote the best songs. Even in 1988. The Evil is a fantastic track from SSOASS. But I prefer the long ignored title track, Infinite Dreams, The Clairvoyant and Only the Good Die Young. On A Matter of Life and Death, it's still kind of equal, in my ears. Songwriting, Lord of Light and BTATS are indeed the best, but both Dave and Janick play some damn fine solos as well. I think I like them even better than Adrian's solos on that album. Coincidentally (or not) I am talking about Janick's solos on the songs he co-wrote and Dave's on the one he co-wrote.
I don't think Bruce going away from Maiden had anything to do with Smith. If you can point out on source where he hints to that, I'd be interested to read it.
All in all, I think Adrian is the most creative songwriter since 2006 and the most interesting guitar player on The Final Frontier, and perhaps on Somewhere in Time.
I find Adrian's solos on Killers much more memorable than his on The Number of the Beast.
His solo on Hallowed is weak and apart from a few nice moments on 22, The Prisoner and Children of the Damned there isn't much to write home about. His licks in Wrathchild, his sparkling solos in The Ides of March and Prodigal Son... now we're talking. However, I admit that Adrian became better and this can already be heard on Piece of Mind.
Never thought he was "better" than Dave. Dave's solos kept being entertaining and imo it wasn't til The Final Frontier when Adrian clearly, really had nicer solos than the other two guitarists. Alright, on Somewhere in Time, Adrian might have outshined Dave a bit, but probably because he did more solos. Dave's intro solo from Deja-vu and his great runs on Caught Somewhere in Time and Heaven Can Wait are as memorable as Adrians best solos (bar his on Sea of Madness), I think.
Dave always sounded like the one who played with more ease. It's not that this was better thing, it's just very nice to have that besides Adrian's constructed solos. Dave was the one with the fluent touch, and the brighter sound. Take his slow solo on Powerslave or e.g. his solos on Judas My Guide or Weekend Warrior (check that build-up!). I could go on for a while. Very good stuff. Janick did some really nice things as well. E.g. The Clansman, Ghost of the Navigator, The Pilgrim and The Legacy have solos that I enjoy very, very much.
I'd say there were experimental things going on in the nineties (though not per se on Virtual XI, or on No Prayer, if one sees that one as a "return" to raw sound).
Not at all. I find Sea of Madness the best song from Somewhere in Time, but his other two I do not rate higher than Deja-vu or any of the Harris songs (apart from Heaven Can Wait). Actually, Adrian was the best songwriter on The Final Frontier, and he wrote one of the best songs on Dance of Death (I still think the title track is better though), but on all other albums, other people wrote the best songs. Even in 1988. The Evil is a fantastic track from SSOASS. But I prefer the long ignored title track, Infinite Dreams, The Clairvoyant and Only the Good Die Young. On A Matter of Life and Death, it's still kind of equal, in my ears. Songwriting, Lord of Light and BTATS are indeed the best, but both Dave and Janick play some damn fine solos as well. I think I like them even better than Adrian's solos on that album. Coincidentally (or not) I am talking about Janick's solos on the songs he co-wrote and Dave's on the one he co-wrote.
I don't think Bruce going away from Maiden had anything to do with Smith. If you can point out on source where he hints to that, I'd be interested to read it.
All in all, I think Adrian is the most creative songwriter since 2006 and the most interesting guitar player on The Final Frontier, and perhaps on Somewhere in Time.
CriedWhenBrucieLeft
Meme Only Account
Why do people give Dave so little credit? (--in these comparisons.) His sound (as Forostar touches upon) is all over every Maiden album. (Admittedly I'm talking very much about leads here.) Adrian is a totally technical player (not knocking this; I'm a technical player). I'm probably wrong here (I only very rarely dabble in viewing all this kind of stuff online) --but I see videos of a lot of guys trying to "do" Maiden. Lots of guitarists are really good at playing like Adrian. But I don't see many sounding like Dave. Adrian can (but doesn't always; doesn't need to, some would say) play fast. But his technique is like a master class in positioning, and creating speed efficiently; it can be learnt. Dave's just fast, full stop. Dave was literally the finished article in 1980. Sure, there's been little improvement --but just listen to how raw the Prowler lead is; pure unadulterated talent. He'd already set the bar embarrassingly high; very, very early on.
Sorry, I'm a big Adrian fan --but Dave is a far more unique guitarist. Say what you like, but take Steve & Dave out of Maiden and what exactly would you have? We've all heard Bruce & Adrian's non-Maiden stuff. Maiden is Steve & Dave, far more than Bruce & Adrian.
Sorry, I'm a big Adrian fan --but Dave is a far more unique guitarist. Say what you like, but take Steve & Dave out of Maiden and what exactly would you have? We've all heard Bruce & Adrian's non-Maiden stuff. Maiden is Steve & Dave, far more than Bruce & Adrian.
The Flash
Dennis Wilcock did 9/11
@ Cried
I agree with you on some levels but absolutely not on the "Dave is a far more unique guitarist." statement. Adrian's playing is also pretty unique. He's fast but not ultra fast, his solos sound like they're literally "composed" note by note. Dave's solos feel more raw and improvised. I find more emotion in Adrian's playing maybe that's because of his fabulous usage of tapping and bends. Dave mostly uses legatos, not the technique that I like the most on guitar playing but Dave does it so well and so creatively that I like his playing too.
Let's leave solos aside. In the live performances, it amazes me how Adrian can be so creative on the harmonies. He always tries different things, different melodies and brings new variations. Dave plays more of a "classic" type on harmonies and Adrian is the experimental one. I sometimes forget about the harmony itself and only listen to Adrian because of it.
I like Adrian better but then again Adrian is my favorite guitar player of all time and Dave is the third. Love them both.
I agree with you on some levels but absolutely not on the "Dave is a far more unique guitarist." statement. Adrian's playing is also pretty unique. He's fast but not ultra fast, his solos sound like they're literally "composed" note by note. Dave's solos feel more raw and improvised. I find more emotion in Adrian's playing maybe that's because of his fabulous usage of tapping and bends. Dave mostly uses legatos, not the technique that I like the most on guitar playing but Dave does it so well and so creatively that I like his playing too.
Let's leave solos aside. In the live performances, it amazes me how Adrian can be so creative on the harmonies. He always tries different things, different melodies and brings new variations. Dave plays more of a "classic" type on harmonies and Adrian is the experimental one. I sometimes forget about the harmony itself and only listen to Adrian because of it.
I like Adrian better but then again Adrian is my favorite guitar player of all time and Dave is the third. Love them both.
Was what I meant to post before reading the rest of the posts. Agreed completely. His Killers solos are excellent. Beast is OK but perhaps a transitional phase for him. His solos on the albums to come are some of Maiden's best. I think H has developed and evolved the best of the Maiden members. Perhaps it has to do with him playing with a larger variety of musicians. He was also always the one to try new things, such as introducing maiden to synthesizers, for example, something that really shaped their sound for two albums; and more recently, taking Maiden in a more progressive songwriting direction with songs such as Isle of Avalon and Lord of Light. The recent Maiden albums wouldn't be nearly as good if H wasn't involved. I've probably said it before, but in my opinion, H's departure hurt the band much more than Bruce's.
Also, welcome to the forum, Andrew.
Andrew
Prowler
I can see a lot of truth in all of these comments, even when they disagree with me 
When I said Adrian was good on Killers but better later, I didn't mean it was a linear progression so with every album he got that little bit better. I meant that if you take Killers as a start point and Final Frontier as an end point, Adrian's playing has steadily improved over time despite some minor ups and downs.
I'd agree with CriedWhenBrucieLeft that Dave set the bar very high in 1980 and his style IS Maiden. To this day, when I look at neck pickups for my guitars, it's Dave's tone I want. By the same token, it was Dave's solo on Prowler that really turned me on to Metal and guitars. That one really made the hairs on the back of my neck stand up. I love the fast, easy and flowing style he has because I have to work really hard at playing guitar whereas it never looks like he's even trying to do what he does. However, I maintain that Adrian is now the more complete guitarist and simply has more in his locker than the other two. Ultimately, the contrast between Dave's easy going style and Adrian's more constructed solos is what makes Maiden such a fascinating band to listen to.
As for Bruce leaving because of Adrian, I didn't mean it exactly that way and my only evidence is my own experiences. I daresay Bruce would ultimately have left anyway but it seems to me a remarkable coincidence that it played out the way it did. On the 'Seventh Son' tour both Adrian and Bruce were firing on all cylinders, at least at the shows I attended but once Adrian had left, Bruce was much worse. His live performances simply didn't have the energy of earlier ones and it just got worse as time went on. By the time I went to his farewell tour it looked like he'd rather be anywhere other than on stage with the rest of them. It's the only Maiden show where I've seriously thought of leaving before the end. On every song, as soon as he didn't have to sing he simply walked off stage and he looked so disinterested in both the audience and the rest of the band that by the end of the gig he was getting some rather hostile responses from the audience. At the end of the show he actually had a go at the audience and although I don't condone such an audience response, it has to be said that he was bloody awful. I remember leaving that show thinking I was glad he was leaving Maiden because the show had been so bad and as a result of that, I didn't see them again until Brave New World. I accept the two may not be directly connected and both departures may have ultimately happened independently but the fact is that Bruce and Adrian are very close, Bruce's performances dropped off a cliff after Adrian left and he's on record saying that he wouldn't have come back unless Adrian did. That has to be more than coincidence so I'd say that Adrian's departure was at least a very strong influence on Bruce's decision.
To me, Maiden work because they gel as a team. They are greater than the sum of their parts and although I think each of them are amongst the best in the world in their field, it is when they come together that the magic starts to happen.
When I said Adrian was good on Killers but better later, I didn't mean it was a linear progression so with every album he got that little bit better. I meant that if you take Killers as a start point and Final Frontier as an end point, Adrian's playing has steadily improved over time despite some minor ups and downs. I'd agree with CriedWhenBrucieLeft that Dave set the bar very high in 1980 and his style IS Maiden. To this day, when I look at neck pickups for my guitars, it's Dave's tone I want. By the same token, it was Dave's solo on Prowler that really turned me on to Metal and guitars. That one really made the hairs on the back of my neck stand up. I love the fast, easy and flowing style he has because I have to work really hard at playing guitar whereas it never looks like he's even trying to do what he does. However, I maintain that Adrian is now the more complete guitarist and simply has more in his locker than the other two. Ultimately, the contrast between Dave's easy going style and Adrian's more constructed solos is what makes Maiden such a fascinating band to listen to.
As for Bruce leaving because of Adrian, I didn't mean it exactly that way and my only evidence is my own experiences. I daresay Bruce would ultimately have left anyway but it seems to me a remarkable coincidence that it played out the way it did. On the 'Seventh Son' tour both Adrian and Bruce were firing on all cylinders, at least at the shows I attended but once Adrian had left, Bruce was much worse. His live performances simply didn't have the energy of earlier ones and it just got worse as time went on. By the time I went to his farewell tour it looked like he'd rather be anywhere other than on stage with the rest of them. It's the only Maiden show where I've seriously thought of leaving before the end. On every song, as soon as he didn't have to sing he simply walked off stage and he looked so disinterested in both the audience and the rest of the band that by the end of the gig he was getting some rather hostile responses from the audience. At the end of the show he actually had a go at the audience and although I don't condone such an audience response, it has to be said that he was bloody awful. I remember leaving that show thinking I was glad he was leaving Maiden because the show had been so bad and as a result of that, I didn't see them again until Brave New World. I accept the two may not be directly connected and both departures may have ultimately happened independently but the fact is that Bruce and Adrian are very close, Bruce's performances dropped off a cliff after Adrian left and he's on record saying that he wouldn't have come back unless Adrian did. That has to be more than coincidence so I'd say that Adrian's departure was at least a very strong influence on Bruce's decision.
To me, Maiden work because they gel as a team. They are greater than the sum of their parts and although I think each of them are amongst the best in the world in their field, it is when they come together that the magic starts to happen.
Sebas-hero1995
Nomad
Talking as an amateur guitarist, I find Dave's styles better, maybe because I like that aspect of him that lets some room to improvisation. Not that Adrian solos are bad, not at all, but I do prefer for example, to play Dave's solo of the Trooper because there is more space to improvise, and improvisation is the key to make your own style.