New Frontier

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'new Frontier'

[!--QuoteBegin-Onhell+Sep 26 2003, 07:31 PM--][div class=\'quotetop\']QUOTE(Onhell @ Sep 26 2003, 07:31 PM)[/div][div class=\'quotemain\'][!--QuoteEBegin--] At first I refused to write about this topic, since science and religion are difficult topics to discuss, but the intelligent comments I found (except for some retards who hate gers and maverik), changed my mind. Everything has already been said except this. EVERYTHING IS A DOUBLE EDGE SWORD....EVERYTHING. Science is a great thing that has brought us medecine, laser-eye surgery and reconstructive surgery for people who have suffered horrible accidents. However, it also performs abortions, it gives superficial people plastic surgery and what not. Religion is the same way, it's true purpose is to enlighten, bring the believer peace and in turn he will be at peace with others, but countries like the U.S. use it to manipulate people, to cause fear and to keep them in line. In other words, one has to see through the bullshit. Clonning is a miracle of science, but it must be used wisely. Extremes are never healthy. [/quote]
Hi Onhell...ignore the Ancient Mariner, he's just a total goofball like that. You make a good point, I think. Society needs balance. And yeah, we generally try to hold intelligent conversations here. None of that Official BB nonsense.
 
'new Frontier'

Much talk has been made of the subject of genetic engineering, especially in nz recently... I don't agree with tampering with foodstuffs, or with altering plants/animals with some blind acceptance that we 'can make it better than nature'.... maybe we can, maybe we can't. The scientists involved may know pretty much where they stand with GE corn or whatever, but do their bosses, the ones who stand to make the money, really care? As far as I'm concerned, 'playing God' is a figure of speech.... and yes, I know Nicko's gone christian and there must be a bit of that in it too. A war of God and man? Maybe the church against science.

I'm no fan of human cloning or religious so called morality-preachers either.... I accept that cloning/geneitic manipulation is no new thing in recent years, I also do not accept that scientists know everything there is to know about the subject either - and yes, I realise I'm not an expert on it myself. But modifying bananas and modifying people are two different things. The bananas don't seem to be harmful yet, but I have heard it said their days are numbered because they've been made genetically inferior.

And I'm sorry, but morality does have something to say about what we do with scientfic discoveries.... about how they're applied, at any rate... and also to their discovery, depending on the method used. Are you saying morals don't apply to scientific experiments??

Having said all that, if I had a defective heart, I wouldn't mind getting one that was cloned from me and grown in a vat for me. But would you do the same, if you had a brain tumor?
 
'new Frontier'

Morals and ethics apply to all, mainly to scientists. However, what is done of their work is not necessarily the scientists' doing. After all, the discovery of nuclear fission led to the elaboration of bombs as well as to a new and powerful source of energy. What is made of a discovery needs to be carefully assessed prior to its use and, like I've already said, the fact that "we can do it" must not systematically entail that "we should do it".

I remember this moral issue raised in Britain a few years back about data on hypothermia obtained by Nazi "doctors" in concentration camps. These data had been successfully used to save the lives of many pilots downed over the North Sea and suffering from hypothermia due to a prolonged stay in the cold water. A few pilots had died of heart failure after being pulled out of the water vertically by helicopter. Some RAF physicians happened to get hold of data from experiments conducted on humans during the Nazi era and, after analysis, suggested that the pilots should be laid flat on their backs before being hauled out of the cold sea. It worked and saved many lives, but the moral problem of how the data were obtained was raised. In the end, it was concluded that, no matter how horrible the experiments were, they could save people, and the horrid death of those who were experimented on were not useless.

It's a thin line...
 
'new Frontier'

There is definately a thin line, but we have learned from those mistakes (at least I hope we have) and no longer do experiments on humans (withouth their knowledge or with no regard for their lives and safety). Now people volunteer to be lab rats. Pertaining to GE foods, they are causing problems among the population but they are not leathal....yet. And as far as humans go, remember "dolly" died prematurely (she only lived 6 years), if that's a sheep, what kind of problems would a cloned human have?
 
'new Frontier'

First off; Let's just say that New Frontier is just another good commentary by Maiden.

With that off my chest, I'd like to agree, mostly, with Maverick.

There have been an awful lot of great scientific developments throughout modern history, and it's virtually never up to the originator of the idea as to how their discovery is utilized. The splitting of the atom was originally investigated as a clean, never-ending source of energy. Add governments to the equation and we have a nifty way of frying people at thousands of degrees!

As a scientist (biologist to be precise) and also an "agnostic", the primary burden of the use of scientific knowledge should be on the scientific community. Religious beliefs and scientific beliefs have never really been that successfully "merged" into a governing ideal. Basically, science needs to adopt and EMPLOY an altruistic code of ethics...what's in the interest of the "COMMON GOOD". There's too much volatility in the religion/science mix. Too much hostility and machismo. Scientists and their piers should do a better job of policing their own developments and their uses. Besides, I've never believed that a person had to have any stance on religion at all to be a good, moral, ethical person.

I had the opportunity, for a time, to run the daily operations at a genetics lab when in college. Some animal experiments were conducted (selective breedings for fur color and traits) and some flower cloning was performed. When cloning an organism, you've got to keep in mind genetic expression and the chances of mutations. The gist of it is that the orchid clones demonstrated strange morphologies and were almost always sterile. GENES SHOULD NOT BE MANIPULATED.

The mere mention of "the human genome project" sends shivers down my spine. If traced back in history, a lot of the very preliminary work was done by such wonderful "scientists/doctors" as Mengela.

A big thumbs up to Nicko and the rest of you for getting me stirred up! By the way, my grandfather was "experimented on" in a concentration camp and died painfully of several different types of cancer. Granted a lot of toxicological information and human threshold tolerance data was gianed from human experimentation, but at what TRUE cost?
 
'new Frontier'

The problem with Dolly, like with any cloned whole organism, is that her cells at birth had the age of the ewe they were sampled from and carried on naturally with the ageing process.

If you take an example with humans, a baby resulting from the cloning of a cell extracted from a, say, 20-year old woman, would start its metabolic life at the same age. When the clone reaches the age of 30, the cells would be effectively 50 and, although still young, the subject would start developing pathologies related to age (like arthritis or cataract, for instance). A clone is therefore bound to be shorter-lived than a "natural" being.

But trust science to circumvent this little problem in the future... [!--emo&;)--][img src=\'style_emoticons/[#EMO_DIR#]/wink.gif\' border=\'0\' style=\'vertical-align:middle\' alt=\'wink.gif\' /][!--endemo--]
 
'new Frontier'

[!--QuoteBegin-Onhell+Sep 26 2003, 08:31 PM--][div class=\'quotetop\']QUOTE(Onhell @ Sep 26 2003, 08:31 PM)[/div][div class=\'quotemain\'][!--QuoteEBegin--] At first I refused to write about this topic, since science and religion are difficult topics to discuss, but the intelligent comments I found (except for some retards who hate gers and maverik), changed my mind. Everything has already been said except this. EVERYTHING IS A DOUBLE EDGE SWORD....EVERYTHING. Science is a great thing that has brought us medecine, laser-eye surgery and reconstructive surgery for people who have suffered horrible accidents. However, it also performs abortions, it gives superficial people plastic surgery and what not. Religion is the same way, it's true purpose is to enlighten, bring the believer peace and in turn he will be at peace with others, but countries like the U.S. use it to manipulate people, to cause fear and to keep them in line. In other words, one has to see through the bullshit. Clonning is a miracle of science, but it must be used wisely. Extremes are never healthy.  [/quote]
That is a very good point! [!--emo&:)--][img src=\'style_emoticons/[#EMO_DIR#]/smile.gif\' border=\'0\' style=\'vertical-align:middle\' alt=\'smile.gif\' /][!--endemo--] Religion is very much a money and war making tool, as opposed to it's original intended purpose of belief and devotion.

And, btw, I don't hate Maverick; the Commentary is the best Maiden site ever. Just thought I'd clear that up.
 
'new Frontier'

I was listening to Helloween's keeper p. II album yesterday (for the first time in years) and I listened to "Dr. Stein". The story of a "mad scientists" who clones weird creatures that turn out to be polititians, rock stars and other ocupations. however, it says that he grew bored of creating this things and cloned himself, and the creature killed him later on that night..... interesting for a mid '80's song.
 
'new Frontier'

Well, 'Dr. Stein' is one of those joke-songs Helloween were making when they first started. This one's hilarious, but try also 'Gorgar' [!--emo&^_^--][img src=\'style_emoticons/[#EMO_DIR#]/happy.gif\' border=\'0\' style=\'vertical-align:middle\' alt=\'happy.gif\' /][!--endemo--]
 
'new Frontier'

It is a funny song, but it has that "cautionary tale" wind to it. I'll check that other one out. Am I the only disapointed with their last release? (I know this is the IM commentary page, hehe) Anywho...
 
'new Frontier'

[!--QuoteBegin-Onhell+Oct 16 2003, 01:11 AM--][div class=\'quotetop\']QUOTE(Onhell @ Oct 16 2003, 01:11 AM)[/div][div class=\'quotemain\'][!--QuoteEBegin--] It is a funny song, but it has that "cautionary tale" wind to it. I'll check that other one out. Am I the only disapointed with their last release? (I know this is the IM commentary page, hehe) Anywho... [/quote]
I like the "cautionary tale" expression! [!--emo&:D--][img src=\'style_emoticons/[#EMO_DIR#]/biggrin.gif\' border=\'0\' style=\'vertical-align:middle\' alt=\'biggrin.gif\' /][!--endemo--]
 
'new Frontier'

[!--QuoteBegin-Onhell+Oct 15 2003, 11:11 PM--][div class=\'quotetop\']QUOTE(Onhell @ Oct 15 2003, 11:11 PM)[/div][div class=\'quotemain\'][!--QuoteEBegin--] It is a funny song, but it has that "cautionary tale" wind to it. I'll check that other one out. Am I the only disapointed with their last release? (I know this is the IM commentary page, hehe) Anywho...  [/quote]
It's okay, the Commentary has other bands on it too!
 
'new Frontier'

I'm studing biochemistry at sheffield university, and although like you i hate the moral majority christian bullshit that goes on, I actually see some valid points in nicko's lyrics. I mean, science can explain everything our body does, even what we think, but it doesn't to me explain why I experience what i see (this is a very hard point to convey but i think you'll understand what im getting at. So yeah anyway, im not a christian really, at least not a die hard one, but i kind of believe in a soul of sorts.
 
'new Frontier'

the soul is just sth man kind has made up to fulfil his unanswered questions about how his brain works. the soul is imo the result of the combination of all the function centers of the brain down to the very last neuron. an intresting allegory i was watching the other day on a documentary is that when you see a termite nest, it's architecturally amazing. no termite alone could have done it, it is the result of the combined "intellect" of thousands of termites...
 
'new Frontier'

Gor, I would watch for comments like "the soul is something mankind made up..." because that you believe that doesn't make it true (and that goes both ways). The truth is we don't know. Yet the existance of Heaven, Hell, the soul and eternity are truely irrelevant. if you lead a good life, if you reach enlightment, Nirvana, you find God or are simply a good person.....does all of the above really matter? No. [!--emo&:rock:--][img src=\'style_emoticons/[#EMO_DIR#]/headbang.gif\' border=\'0\' style=\'vertical-align:middle\' alt=\'headbang.gif\' /][!--endemo--]
 
'new Frontier'

Now, you can read other visitors' comments on 'New Frontier' as well as post your own. Any contribution to the commentary will be much appreciated, may it be cultural references relevant to the song (links to related websites, interpretations that may have been overlooked in the Commentary, and the like) or personal essays related to the topic of the song. Just be aware that messages that are either off-topic or too wacky may be deleted.
 
'new Frontier'

I´m more proud of the songs I´ve written than of the actual basslines. It´s more important to have a great song. I always play the basslines in way I think they are right for the songs. Less is more sometimes. If you write the songs on your own you know about what is needed and what is not. I think if more drummers would write songs they would appreciate that more. It´s because you need light and shade. It´s the argument on every album we do. So our drummer have written his own stuff on the new album for the first time and I hope that he realises that a little more. It´s weird. The drums on his song are very straight. I think he comes to that point.

Steve Harris

[a href=\'http://www.agentur-v.de/html/interview_-_englisch.html\' target=\'_blank\']http://www.agentur-v.de/html/interview_-_englisch.html[/a]
 
'new Frontier'

I'm glad you did the commentaries Maverick, but you sometimes go too in depth about the material the song is about. I nearly fell asleep reading the commentary for Paschendale. The commentary for New Frontier I found to be rather pointless as well since it mainley consisted of what you thought about religion and science and had little to do with the song. Well just a little constructive criticism.
 
'new Frontier'

Just remember that Nicko is well, middleaged to say the least and people tend to find religion when they get that old. I don't think that he is trying to be a zealot or something it's just his way of thinking and nothing more, certainly not some sort of a life or death message ,and after all it's a good song ain't it ?
 
'new Frontier'

Average song, but far better than Gates of Tomorrow. Great effort by Nicko. Solos are kickass, but the rest of the song is... the same. Having said that I would have liked to see this played on the tour (and Montsegur too but hey!).

So, to summerize, average song but great in terms of Nicko writing it! [!--emo&:p--][img src=\'style_emoticons/[#EMO_DIR#]/tongue.gif\' border=\'0\' style=\'vertical-align:middle\' alt=\'tongue.gif\' /][!--endemo--]
 
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