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LooseCannon

Enterprise-class aircraft carrier
Staff member
I never said Maiden was obsolete.

Why is it that so many people read into my posts things that I have never said or implied?

You did imply it when you said, "In today's times Maiden are neither heavy, nor groundbreaking...Some people are trying to say Maiden are progressive. They aren't, they are a straight forward rock metal band."

I don't think this is, at all, true - but you're entitled to your opinion, of course. (I also disagree that Nightwish represents some cutting edge of metal.)
 

johnglen

Educated Fool
Nightwish pretty much invented the Symphonic metal subgenre.
Yeah ......no. There were a ton of symphonic «metal» bands before them from Stratovarious to Rhapsody to whatever. Honestly your opinions about Maiden are embarrasing (simpler than Nightwish....lol) but whatever. Anyway for me symphonic metal is Celtic Frost in albums like ITP not this eurometal thing.
 
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MindlessPieces

Educated Fool
You did imply it when you said, "In today's times Maiden are neither heavy, nor groundbreaking...Some people are trying to say Maiden are progressive. They aren't, they are a straight forward rock metal band."

I don't think this is, at all, true - but you're entitled to your opinion, of course. (I also disagree that Nightwish represents some cutting edge of metal.)
I'm just stating what I see as facts.

Maiden aren't inventing any subgenres of music. They are doing lots of long epics, they have been doing long epics for 40 years. Many metal bands do long epics.
Progressive bands are bands like Dream Theatre, Ayreon etc. Maiden doing time changes, using piano, or putting an SOS message in the middle of a song does not make them a progressive band. they are primarily a rock/metal band. If they were full on progressive I wouldn't like them so much. I'm not a fan of Dream Theatre.

Nightwish invented the Symphonic metal subgenre, they did this after Maiden pioneered NWOBHM. I'm not saying and have never said that Nightwish are cutting edge so I don't know why you think you disagree with me on this.
Nightwish aren't progressive, but their music is more varied and progressive than Maiden, also more heavy.
By today's standards Maiden aren't heavy at all.
 

frus

Barbed Wire Hen
Well I think making good and interesting music that catches peoples' imagination is pretty groundbreaking. Otherwise you could argue that any band wasn't groundbreaking for more than a few years
 

MindlessPieces

Educated Fool
Yeah ......no. There were a ton of symphonic «metal» bands before them from Stratovarious to Rhapsody to whatever. Honestly your opinions about Maiden are embarrasing (simpler than Nightwish....lol) but whatever. Anyway for me symphonic metal is Celtic Frost in albums like ITP not this eurometal thing.
Nope, Celtic Frost was never a Symphonic Metal band and although some bands were incorporating symphonic elements.
The first notable symphonic bands were
Therion, Nightwish and Within Temptation.
 

MindlessPieces

Educated Fool
Well I think making good and interesting music that catches peoples' imagination is pretty groundbreaking. Otherwise you could argue that any band wasn't groundbreaking for more than a few years
Sure, I wouldn't expect any band to be always ground breaking with their albums. Typically they develop a fan base and they would be silly to alienate them.
 

LooseCannon

Enterprise-class aircraft carrier
Staff member
I'm just stating what I see as facts.
You're providing opinion and presenting them as facts. Different things.

Maiden aren't inventing any subgenres of music. They are doing lots of long epics, they have been doing long epics for 40 years. Many metal bands do long epics.
No, Maiden has never invented a subgenre of music - they're their own thing, and always have been. Not sure what having long epics has to do with anything. When Maiden started doing long epics - on their very first album - it was abnormal, but sure, it's more normal now. What's the difference? It's probably because a massive major metal band got famous on their long songs. Songs like Phantom of the Opera, Rime of the Ancient Mariner, and especially, Hallowed Be Thy Name.

Progressive bands are bands like Dream Theatre, Ayreon etc. Maiden doing time changes, using piano, or putting an SOS message in the middle of a song does not make them a progressive band. they are primarily a rock/metal band. If they were full on progressive I wouldn't like them so much. I'm not a fan of Dream Theatre.
Okay? Not sure why this is relevant.

Nightwish invented the Symphonic metal subgenre,
They absolutely did not. While an early innovator of the music, the origins are in Celtic Frost and Therion. Nightwish is close on their heels, and they've certainly perfected the formula. This is like giving Maiden credit for all of NWOBHM when in reality they're one of the contemporary innovators of the genre (and certainly, like Nightwish, the most successful).

I'm not saying and have never said that Nightwish are cutting edge so I don't know why you think you disagree with me on this.
You said, "Many bands such as Nightwish have taken metal forward in leaps and bounds." This is a very similar statement and I was trying to use a similar turn of phrase. Regardless, even if Nightwish has moved metal in new directions, whether or not it is forward is in the ear of the beholder - and I say this as someone who quite likes Nightwish.

Nightwish aren't progressive, but their music is more varied and progressive than Maiden, also more heavy.
I can see how there's a more varied approach to music from Nightwish - they've certainly never been afraid to run the stylistic gamut, to their credit, and far more often than Maiden does - but I don't think they're more appreciably progressive, and certainly not as heavy. And double-certainly not as heavy in their recent outings.

You're relying on "By today's standards Maiden aren't heavy at all." but I don't think this is at all true. Are you comparing to grindcore? Are you comparing to black metal? Or are you comparing vis a vis the entirety of rock? All of music? Because it's certainly on the heavy side of the latter two. There's absolutely a generational aspect to how heavy is heavy - what was particularly heavy in 1980 may not beso here - but I think the weight of the music still stands up 40+ years later.
 

Mosh

Winner of the 2020 Dumbest Comment Ever Award
Staff member
I'm just stating what I see as facts.

Maiden aren't inventing any subgenres of music. They are doing lots of long epics, they have been doing long epics for 40 years. Many metal bands do long epics.
Progressive bands are bands like Dream Theatre, Ayreon etc. Maiden doing time changes, using piano, or putting an SOS message in the middle of a song does not make them a progressive band. they are primarily a rock/metal band. If they were full on progressive I wouldn't like them so much. I'm not a fan of Dream Theatre.

Nightwish invented the Symphonic metal subgenre, they did this after Maiden pioneered NWOBHM. I'm not saying and have never said that Nightwish are cutting edge so I don't know why you think you disagree with me on this.
Nightwish aren't progressive, but their music is more varied and progressive than Maiden, also more heavy.
By today's standards Maiden aren't heavy at all.
I would argue that Dream Theater has been sticking to the same sound for at least 2 decades now, so I wouldn’t necessarily consider them more or less progressive than Maiden. But they definitely fall into that “prog” genre. They originated a new way of playing Metal, but Maiden did too ten years earlier. Very few bands continue to be truly progressive, and the ones that do probably aren’t going to be talked about because they struggle to find audiences.

Some of Maiden’s recent material is definitely influenced by 70s progressive rock, so the stylistic connection there even if Maiden isn’t doing anything groundbreaking.
 

Diesel 11

As you scream into the web of silence...
They absolutely did not. While an early innovator of the music, the origins are in Celtic Frost and Therion. Nightwish is close on their heels, and they've certainly perfected the formula. This is like giving Maiden credit for all of NWOBHM when in reality they're one of the contemporary innovators of the genre (and certainly, like Nightwish, the most successful).
Can we say that Nightwish cemented the genre of symphonic metal then? They didn't invent it but their presence laid the groundwork for much of the genre and I think they are the key inspiration for a multitude of bands now considered to be 'symphonic metal'.
 

MindlessPieces

Educated Fool
No, Maiden has never invented a subgenre of music - they're their own thing, and always have been. Not sure what having long epics has to do with anything. When Maiden started doing long epics - on their very first album - it was abnormal, but sure, it's more normal now. What's the difference? It's probably because a massive major metal band got famous on their long songs. Songs like Phantom of the Opera, Rime of the Ancient Mariner, and especially, Hallowed Be Thy Name.
Maiden were groundbreaking in the 80's - I said this in a previous post.

They absolutely did not. While an early innovator of the music, the origins are in Celtic Frost and Therion. Nightwish is close on their heels, and they've certainly perfected the formula. This is like giving Maiden credit for all of NWOBHM when in reality they're one of the contemporary innovators of the genre (and certainly, like Nightwish, the most successful).
Celtic Frost have never been a Symphonic metal band.
Nightwish were pioneers and one of the very first Symphonic metal bands.

You said, "Many bands such as Nightwish have taken metal forward in leaps and bounds." This is a very similar statement and I was trying to use a similar turn of phrase. Regardless, even if Nightwish has moved metal in new directions, whether or not it is forward is in the ear of the beholder - and I say this as someone who quite likes Nightwish.
Nightwish has certainly taken what Maiden has done and pushed it further.
Just as lots of metal bands have done also. Many, many bands were influenced by Maiden and have pushed it further.

I can see how there's a more varied approach to music from Nightwish - they've certainly never been afraid to run the stylistic gamut, to their credit, and far more often than Maiden does - but I don't think they're more appreciably progressive, and certainly not as heavy. And double-certainly not as heavy in their recent outings.
Way heavier than Iron Maiden

Devil and the deep dark ocean
Bye Bye Beautiful
Yours is an empty hope
Master Passion Greed

I don't even know why people care about who is heavier? or why people seem to get offended by a suggestion that Iron Maiden aren't very heavy.

You're relying on "By today's standards Maiden aren't heavy at all." but I don't think this is at all true. Are you comparing to grindcore? Are you comparing to black metal? Or are you comparing vis a vis the entirety of rock? All of music? Because it's certainly on the heavy side of the latter two. There's absolutely a generational aspect to how heavy is heavy - what was particularly heavy in 1980 may not beso here - but I think the weight of the music still stands up 40+ years later.
Heavy metal in general. Iron Maiden is one of the lighter bands in the entire Metal genre today.
 

johnglen

Educated Fool
What’s this obsession with Nightwish ? Entire metal sub-genres took Maiden’s musical elements and modified them from power metal (both european and american) to melodeath. Seriously stop this thing about....Nightwish (of all bands). You said your piece , we get it.
 

Poto

Ancient Mariner

MindlessPieces

Educated Fool
Human Nature is so pretentious it hurts and just shows that Nightwish have lost the plot.
How can an album be pretentious?
"attempting to impress by affecting greater importance or merit than is actually possessed."

An album is a collection of songs. What in particular makes you consider the album to be pretentious?
 
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