Senjutsu charts position

Jer

Love in anger
What a staggeringly condescending statement. Audio format preferences aren't objective and no-one made you the king of other people's opinions. I could throw a dart onto the internet and hit 1000 audiophiles and audio experts who would soundly disagree with you.
You and they may prefer it, but science disagrees with you on what is a more faithful reproduction of the music within the range of human hearing. Is that a less triggering way of putting it?

Also, I have both the CD and the Vinyl of Senjutsu. The vinyl copy sounds better. Now, tell me I'm full of shit.
If you think it sounds better, good for you. If you think it’s an objectively better reproduction of the music below 22KHz, you’re full of shit.

So, you're saying something that millions of people enjoy and that brings in a healthy revenue stream for artists and the music industry as a whole should be dead just because you don't like it?
I’m saying I lived through the first death of vinyl, and we abandoned it en masse because everything about it was objectively inferior to CDs except the size of the cover art. That’s still true today, regardless of whether you prefer the format for emotional or purely subjective reasons.

And why do you think that is?
For the same reason that some people take unproven nutritional supplements, or think ivermectin is a good treatment for COVID. Just because there’s a market for something doesn’t mean that it’s a good solution.
 

Spaldy

Ancient Mariner
You and they may prefer it, but science disagrees with you on what is a more faithful reproduction of the music within the range of human hearing. Is that a less triggering way of putting it?


If you think it sounds better, good for you. If you think it’s an objectively better reproduction of the music below 22KHz, you’re full of shit.


I’m saying I lived through the first death of vinyl, and we abandoned it en masse because everything about it was objectively inferior to CDs except the size of the cover art. That’s still true today, regardless of whether you prefer the format for emotional or purely subjective reasons.


For the same reason that some people take unproven nutritional supplements, or think ivermectin is a good treatment for COVID. Just because there’s a market for something doesn’t mean that it’s a good solution.
I could respond to this but as you're clearly trolling I'm blocking you instead. I've got no time for antagonistic cunts. There's too many of your type on the internet.
 
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Oregano

Nomad
The matter is actually quite simple. From a purely technical point of view, a CD should sound better than a vinyl because it actually has more dynamic range. In practice, however, the greater dynamic range can be misused for more compression, so that the music sounds louder, and the dynamics suffer as a result. Such strong compressions are not possible with vinyl. That's why vinyl often sounds better. I have the CD version (more practical than vinyl) and the vinyl version (nostalgia, larger artwork, lower loudness and therefore more dynamic). Anyway, the CD will drastically decline, but not disappear. It has established itself too much for that. Even cassette is coming back. I love CDs and will continue to buy them, as will many others.
 

Diesel 11

As you scream into the web of silence...
Each format has its pros and cons, and I like using the bulk of them throughout my day-to-day listening experience. Generally, that means streaming for checking out new music, CDs for my car, and vinyl for other home use. They all bring something different to the table and I enjoy them a lot. I don’t need a jer k’s “objectivity” to validate my personal pleasure.
 

Zare

Uniformly distributed hostility
1) Vinly has a specific sound, like FM radio. You may find it favourable or not
2) CDs get compressed, vinyls do not get compressed. Different product get pressed on either.
3) The so called "black triangle" CDs are sought after because they weren't compressed in mastering, the same product was on vinyl and on CD.
 

Yax

Ancient Mariner
I can only second what has been brought up here before. CD is by far a more technically perfect medium, and vinyl has a lot of downsides. The fact that it doesnt lend itself well to compression however turns into a huge advantage. TBOS and LOTB are close to unlistenable on CD to me due to the headache inducing and transient crushing compression. The vinyl however is a huge improvement because of the source material put on it sounds better with far less mastering compression. It by far outweighs the negative artefacts of vinyl, which are plentiful. Some artefacts can in moderation even turn into subjective advantages. The subtle extra harmonic distortion on Powerslave for instance. You do need high quality gear and setup to make the most out of it though and not have the vinyl overly distort on playback

Regarding the black triangle CDs though. They are a bit of an overpriced ruse. I have checked a couple of them against a standard european CD release by phase inversion and they cancel out completely, which means they are 100% identical after level adjustment, which was like 0.3 to 1dB or whatever.
 

Zare

Uniformly distributed hostility
Each format has its pros and cons

I've seen cassette decks in cars in the wild in early 2010s. Because of that cassette to aux cord adapter.

It's the last thing to come to one's mind but cassette format is really portable in that sense. You could stick a raspberry PI, a battery supply and a conversion mechanism inside a VHS tape enclosure, pop it in the old video and stream Youtube through it...
 

Zare

Uniformly distributed hostility
Regarding the black triangle CDs though. They are a bit of an overpriced ruse. I have checked a couple of them against a standard european CD release by phase inversion and they cancel out completely, which means they are 100% identical after level adjustment, which was like 0.3 to 1dB or whatever.

Well the FLAC I have came from Russia and cost $0 :D

But those "european CDs" are what release? Are they late 80s-early90s relases? Loudness war thing is gradual as far as I know they didn't abuse dynamic space on the CD in the start that much.

The vinyl however is a huge improvement because of the source material put on it sounds better with far less mastering compression. It by far outweighs the negative artefacts of vinyl, which are plentiful.

This is the main point yet it's not frequently mentioned.
The resurgence of vinyl is due to this not some hipsters. I knew Senjutsu on vinyl will sound better. And record industry knows it and that's why they are doing it.

If you were there at the last hour of recording and Shirley plays the entire thing on his monitors, you'd hear something that's closer to what Iron Maiden puts on vinyl than what they put on CD or streaming. That's what matters and not some generic rant about old technology being inferior.
 

MindlessPieces

Educated Fool
Each format has its pros and cons, and I like using the bulk of them throughout my day-to-day listening experience. Generally, that means streaming for checking out new music, CDs for my car, and vinyl for other home use. They all bring something different to the table and I enjoy them a lot. I don’t need a jer k’s “objectivity” to validate my personal pleasure.
I'm not an expert, haven't done research etc,
But, typically I get to listen to music while I work or when I am in the car or running. I don't have a stereo system or a turntable at work or while I run, so I use my Ipod and hence need digital copies. When I buy a physical copy, I rip it to digital and then put the physical copy in a box, never to be seen again.
I used to buy into the idea that Vinyl has more dynamic range. You can see this on websites that show the DR rating of albums and formats.
So I thought OK, maybe they have different masters for Vinyl printings.
Then I thought, gees I wonder if the vinyl version of Dance of Death is better than the CD version.
I was looking online to see if there where rips off the Dance of Death vinyl.

But then I stumbled onto a youtube clip of a guy explaining the difference in measured DR of a vinyl vs CD.
As he explained it, basically they use the same masters, but vinyl is an imprecise medium and as such it introduces impurities, pops, crackles and static and these are picked up and make the DR numbers look better. LOL
I couldn't find that clip, I watched it years ago

Here is a different clip, with a guy that loves vinyl. When he does masters he does a different master for CD vs Vinyl, but he says vinyl is an inferior medium, and he lists many reasons why
1 Narrower stereo image
2 Thinner low end
3 Low signal to noise ratio
4 Harmonic distortion
5 Less transparency on sides of stereo image
6 Sounds worse towards the centre of the record
7 tempo and pitch variations
It's a long clip. if you skip to the 11 minute mark, he sums it up.
I can't hear the differences, but please take this as his opinion, not mine.



And here is a really in depth technical view of Vinyl. (It doesn't bode well for vinyl). At the 10:58 mark they start talking about the loudness wars, but his conclusions were muddled. He didn't say whether a high DR was used for Vinyl and compressed version for CD. He didn't go far enough to give an informed conclusion.



So, anyway. I don't know which is better. Digital is better for me, because I don't have time to sit down next to a tabletop or stereo.
I suspect vinyl is inferior, but I'm no expert and I doubt I'd be able to hear the difference.
 
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