Senjutsu - 3rd September 2021

Midnight

E Unum Pluribus
Why do you think Metallica’s Hardwired was sold as a double album when it would have fit on a single CD like Load…?
Wasn't that because they were planning to include Lords of Summer on the album, but cancelled it at the last second?
 

Jer

Love in anger
Wasn't that because they were planning to include Lords of Summer on the album, but cancelled it at the last second?
If true, they’d have to change half the packaging after making that decision anyway, so they could have gone single disc if they’d wanted to. But why do that when you can charge more and claim to sell twice as many albums?
 

Ruflux

Ancient Mariner
You can charge more for a double album, and a double album counts as 2x the sales in terms of gold/platinum status. Why do you think Metallica’s Hardwired was sold as a double album when it would have fit on a single CD like Load…?
People keep saying this, but I've yet to see a reputable source actually state that the RIAA counts any double album as twice the sales, rather than the old standard of double albums that are over 100 minutes long. Either way, Maiden going for a double album once again is almost certainly due to them refusing to compromise even a bit over the song lengths.

And like @Midnight said, HTSD was a double due to sequencing issues - they wanted Lords of Summer on the album, the producer insisted it wasn't good enough and eventually got his way, but by then they'd already put in the order for two CDs per album and had packaging ready and all. Hardwired was written and thrown in after that so they could alter small things like the running order that's printed on, but the plants were ready to print two CDs per album and that wasn't something they could change.

Even though a CD technically has room for 80 minutes audio (maximum) using it all is asking for trouble. Have heard on hifi-forums some players have issues with tracking when getting above 70 minutes.
Since we're on Metallica, Load is 78:59 long, apparently the exact maximum they were given before it would start causing problems with older CD players. This was in 1996. If it was okay back then, it would've almost certainly been fine now. Senjutsu is under 82 minutes so cutting about three somewhere would've been fine.

e: And just to note, I'm fine with Maiden doing a double album by the slightest of margins, just as I was with Metallica doing one when they technically didn't need to. It's an artistic decision. I'm sure that they didn't randomly pick that the first disc has six songs instead of an even five-to-five split, for example. I'm just surprised they went with a double album at all with how small of a margin it is.
 
Last edited:

Black Abyss Babe

Quantum weather butterfly
We all saw what was during FTGGOG this tour, people were taking piss break.
Speak for yourself - my recollection was that everyone was really into it. When those opening notes on the bass started to waft out to us everyone just woke up and started to look excited. There were cheers ...

I certainly wasn't aware of any mass exodus at that point but I'll tell you something: anyone who did leave and then tried to get back in later most certainly would be taking the piss :D
 

Jer

Love in anger
People keep saying this, but I've yet to see a reputable source actually state that the RIAA counts any double album as twice the sales, rather than the old standard of double albums that are over 100 minutes long.

It’s a bit legalese, but each disc counts as a “unit” as long as you charge at least $2/disc wholesale and at least $6/disc retail.

And like @Midnight said, HTSD was a double due to sequencing issues - they wanted Lords of Summer on the album, the producer insisted it wasn't good enough and eventually got his way, but by then they'd already put in the order for two CDs per album and had packaging ready and all.
That’s funny, my CDs and packaging don’t have “Lords Of Summer” on the track listings, so they must have redone most of the packaging prior to shipment. Why not downsize to one disc at that point? It’s not like Metallica had to personally warehouse some third party 2-disc packaging that they’d already bought without their custom artwork. That’s not how manufacturing works these days.

Maybe LOS got them onto the idea of a double album in the first place, but greed is almost certainly what kept them on a double album in the end.
 

Ruflux

Ancient Mariner
That’s funny, my CDs and packaging don’t have “Lords Of Summer” on the track listings, so they must have redone most of the packaging prior to shipment. Why not downsize to one disc at that point? It’s not like Metallica had to personally warehouse some third party 2-disc packaging that they’d already bought without their custom artwork. That’s not how manufacturing works these days.

Maybe LOS got them onto the idea of a double album in the first place, but greed is almost certainly what kept them on a double album in the end.
I may have been more confusing than I needed to be. The packaging was designed for two discs (or three, for the deluxe version) but that's largely irrelevant here. They could alter the text on the packaging and the discs since those are only final once they're ready to print, but they couldn't tell the record company that "hey we only need one disc after all" at that stage because the orders had been put in, which they are, months ahead of when they get the master they're going to work off of. That's the CDs, not the packaging itself, specifically.

They did in fact change the sequencing after the album was already announced. They didn't specify why they made it a double other than "it wouldn't fit" either, leading to much confusion since Load is on one disc and is a few minutes longer. It wasn't until the fan club had a candid interview with the producer that what actually happened was revealed; i.e. the story about the CD production order and Lords of Summer being excluded.

I dunno why it has to be about "greed" or whatever. AJFA launched as a double LP due to manufacturing issues (the album was too long to fit on one vinyl) too. HTSD wasn't priced differently from other new CDs at the time, far as I can tell. The deluxe versions obviously were more expensive. Album sales are a footnote in any band's revenue stream these days anyway.
 

Mosh

Winner of the 2020 Dumbest Comment Ever Award
Staff member
It makes sense for Senjutsu to be a double CD. It is well over the 80 minute mark and they make a point on the press release to note that it’s just barely a double album. They’re not building any false expectations or anything like that. My only point is that technically the album could fit on a 2LP vinyl set. It’s not a problem- the album is going to sound better because of it. If I had to guess though, they’re going that route because the TBOS triple LP was as huge success, looked cool, and they want to go that packaging route again. Remember also that until TBOS, Maiden really hadn’t taken the vinyl format seriously since the 80s.
 

Iron Lurker

Ancient Mariner
Speak for yourself - my recollection was that everyone was really into it. When those opening notes on the bass started to waft out to us everyone just woke up and started to look excited. There were cheers ...
Not so much in the USA I think. Not me of course, my first opportunity to hear it performed live. It was great!
 

Jer

Love in anger
they couldn't tell the record company that "hey we only need one disc after all" at that stage because the orders had been put in, which they are, months ahead of when they get the master they're going to work off of. That's the CDs, not the packaging itself, specifically.
Right, because what would a record company do with a bunch of blank, unpressed CDs? I’m sure they’d never find another use for them in the future.

Sorry, that argument doesn’t hold water. Blank CDs are a commodity. Metallica or the record company may have had to pay for all the blanks, but they’d still be used on future pressings. If they’d wanted to ship a single disc version they could have done so, no problem.

If I’d received a package with “Lords Of Summer” whited out on the CD and the packaging then I might have been inclined to believe the story. As it stands, it doesn’t pass the smell test.

Album sales are a footnote in any band's revenue stream these days anyway.
Being the #1 unit seller the week you debut is still noteworthy, and it’s much easier to achieve these days than it used to be due to reduced physical sales. Automatically doubling your unit sales with a double album makes a #1 almost guaranteed for a name band.
 

Ruflux

Ancient Mariner
Right, because what would a record company do with a bunch of blank, unpressed CDs? I’m sure they’d never find another use for them in the future.

Sorry, that argument doesn’t hold water. Blank CDs are a commodity. Metallica or the record company may have had to pay for all the blanks, but they’d still be used on future pressings. If they’d wanted to ship a single disc version they could have done so, no problem.

If I’d received a package with “Lords Of Summer” whited out on the CD and the packaging then I might have been inclined to believe the story. As it stands, it doesn’t pass the smell test.
Why is this so hard for you to believe? Contracts are contracts, CD orders are CD orders. The record company put in an order for X number of CDs to be pressed and a month out from when the plants start pressing them, they go "oh wait, sorry, we only need half of that" and you expect the manufacturing plant to just go "oh okay then, no biggie, we'll just suddenly massively reschedule our entire production line because we expected to be producing twice as many CDs in this time period"? Hell no. That doesn't sound more believable in the slightest.

Those plants aren't waiting on Metallica to decide how many CDs they want forever. They'll be working at capacity as much as they can since having the plant sit around doing nothing is how you lose money. This shit's not that farfetched. CDs aren't produced and printed out in a few days, the whole process will be lined up months in advance and there definitely will be a point where you can't just alter how many CDs you wanted produced and especially not if that amount is literally half of what you previously agreed on. I guarantee you that.
 
  • Like
Reactions: Yax

Jer

Love in anger
Why is this so hard for you to believe? Contracts are contracts, CD orders are CD orders. The record company put in an order for X number of CDs to be pressed and a month out from when the plants start pressing them, they go "oh wait, sorry, we only need half of that" and you expect the manufacturing plant to just go "oh okay then, no biggie, we'll just suddenly massively reschedule our entire production line because we expected to be producing twice as many CDs in this time period"? Hell no. That doesn't sound more believable in the slightest.
I deal with contract manufacturers on far more expensive components all the time. As long as they get paid, they don’t care. If they wind up using less capacity because your plans changed, but you still paid them the original amount, that actually benefits them because they can use that extra capacity to make even more money. They might ship excess components back to you if you’re not going to use them up quickly on future orders, but they’ll usually just hold onto them and use them up with your follow-on orders. And that’s for things way more specific and expensive than a blank CD.

the whole process will be lined up months in advance and there definitely will be a point where you can't just alter how many CDs you wanted produced and especially not if that amount is literally half of what you previously agreed on. I guarantee you that.
There’s a point where you can’t alter how many blank CDs you ordered, yes. But since you already paid for all of them at that point the CM won’t care if you tell them to only use half of them on the first order.

Also, these are commodity components. The CD blanks for sure, and usually the disc packaging is generic third-party stuff where you customize the artwork. They obviously had time to change the artwork, so unless something really bizarre was going on they should have been able to change the packaging as well, since almost all manufacturing of that type is made to order. This is why the argument doesn’t make sense.

Why is this so hard for you to believe?
 

gazda

Educated Fool
I dont think they will ever drop Trooper again, it is a great live song and over last few yeras it became mainstream with beer brand, a lot of covers, Myles Kenndy version is very popular. On Spotify it is most popular Maiden song.
 

Iron Lurker

Ancient Mariner
I dont think they will ever drop Trooper again, it is a great live song and over last few yeras it became mainstream with beer brand, a lot of covers, Myles Kenndy version is very popular. On Spotify it is most popular Maiden song.
You are probably right. A lot of fans weren’t happy when it wasn’t played prior to the proper TFF tour when they played mostly reunion era songs
 
Top