Senjutsu - 3rd September 2021

GhostofCain

Ancient Mariner
Big time man.


+1

Also:

I faced them down the only one
I stood alone and warned the day would come
But they were wrong, appeasers every one

And not for the last time we all stand alone

I watch the sun move away
As I embrace the night
And my black dog has its day
For six long yеars, you shall not pass
Barbarians at the gates
We will ovеrcome


..
You sons of Albion awake

Defend this sacred land

Pretty positive outlook.

I'd say Bruce was probably even drooling when writing the lyrics.
 

Ruflux

Ancient Mariner
Yeah, I hate to say it but that's not exactly what you'd call a depiction of a flawed man doing what he must, that's just glorifying his legacy without much in the way of a critical eye.

"People say I 'idolize' Churchill. Not true, I hold a fair and balanced view." -B. Dickinson, 2019, probably.
 
D

Deleted member 7164

Guest
It doesn't take away my enjoyment from listening to this great track.

So then,

I have the fire, I have the force
I have the power to make my evil take its course

Is praising Satan, right?

I see where you're going, but the TNOTB "story" actually has the bad guy "uttering" those lyrics at the end.
In Darkest Hour, Churchill is the story.

For me "turn the ploughshares into swords" sounds like something you'd do in a strategy game. Like sliding a population slider between peasants and army for the next turn's production. And it's exactly what Churchill was doing for his entire life, it just wasn't a game and those people weren't pixels.

It's this Dickinson's gallant and poetic description of him that people have a problem with. And a context where he puts him as saviour of Europe/freedom at an expense of his own people. Which is certainly not true. Here's why


Very wise guy indeed. Putting Turing through hormonal therapy was very wise too. Let's kill a man because he's different, while not noticing his massive contribution to the war effort. But no, old idiot staring out of the window pondering about sending 15 or 23 thousand men into certain death tommorow morning; the pros and cons of both. Very honorable and wise position indeed.
 

MindlessPieces

Educated Fool
Big time man.


+1

Also:

I faced them down the only one
I stood alone and warned the day would come
But they were wrong, appeasers every one

And not for the last time we all stand alone

I watch the sun move away
As I embrace the night
And my black dog has its day
For six long yеars, you shall not pass
Barbarians at the gates
We will ovеrcome


..
You sons of Albion awake

Defend this sacred land

Pretty positive outlook.
Seems to me to be a first person perspective, like what Churchill might have been feeling at the time. Not a statement of what the members of Iron Maiden think about Churchill's character.

Good grief, if we are going down this woke path then all Maiden will be able to sing about is stardust, moonbeams, and rainbows.
 

MindlessPieces

Educated Fool
Yeah, I hate to say it but that's not exactly what you'd call a depiction of a flawed man doing what he must, that's just glorifying his legacy without much in the way of a critical eye.
Was Maiden writing an academic historical record full of moral judgements and covering all perspectives of the entirety of Churchill's public life and actions or were they writing a song?

Good grief.
 

____no5

Free Man
Seems to me to be a first person perspective, like what Churchill might have been feeling at the time. Not a statement of what the members of Iron Maiden think about Churchill's character.

Sure, and it still suggests sympathy.
You wouldn’t speak those words for someone you despise, let alone write. And here Bruce’s going public, knowing that million people will hear those words and thousands will analyse them.
 

MindlessPieces

Educated Fool
Sure, and it still suggests sympathy.
You wouldn’t speak those words for someone you despise, let alone write. And here Bruce’s going public, knowing that million people will hear those words and thousands will analyse them.
Utter nonsense. But you have every right to be shocked at the lyrics and disappointed in Bruce for writing them. That's your prerogative.
I just don't happen to share your view on this.

They wrote and performed and recorded a song.
They aren't attempting to rewrite history or portray Churchill as an upstanding ethical role model (a saint) LOL.
 

____no5

Free Man
I’m not shocked at lyrics or disappointed in Bruce, I understand he considers Churchill a great leader and I respect that. (I don’t have any particular opinion on Churchill)

I will not attempt to convince you further on why going million people public has a weight.
I guess Maiden starting their iconic Live After Death & many tours with Churchill’s speech doesn’t mean a thing either.
 

MindlessPieces

Educated Fool
I’m not shocked at lyrics or disappointed in Bruce, I understand he considers Churchill a great leader and I respect that. (I don’t have any particular opinion on Churchill)

I will not attempt to convince you further on why going million people public has a weight.
I guess Maiden starting their iconic Live After Death & many tours with Churchill’s speech doesn’t mean a thing either.
Maiden have lots of songs about war, British wars etc, Churchils speech represents Britain's war effort, it's not an endorsement about how great Churchill is as a person. I've never thought Bruce or Maiden as having praise for Churchill.

I don't know how or why you jump to that conclusion.
 

____no5

Free Man
I already explained, I don't have further arguments. Below quotes demonstrate that it's not only myself jumping to that conclusion:

"People say I 'idolize' Churchill. Not true, I hold a fair and balanced view." -B. Dickinson, 2019, probably.
I'd say Bruce was probably even drooling when writing the lyrics.
Yeah, I hate to say it but that's not exactly what you'd call a depiction of a flawed man doing what he must, that's just glorifying his legacy without much in the way of a critical eye.
 

srfc

Ancient Mariner
They aren't attempting to rewrite history or portray Churchill as an upstanding ethical role model (a saint) LOL.

I'd disagree with that when there's lines about Britain standing alone, and barbarians being at the gates. They might have been at the gates of Stalingrad but they were nowhere near the gates of London, or even the cliffs of Dover.


EDIT: For the record, I have no problem with the song, or have any issue with Maiden singing about Churchill, at the end of the day whatever the flaws of Churchill he got it right on the major thing he needed to in his life. I was just surprised at the very "dads army" style poetic liberties taken to the lyrics from an actual history graduate.
 

GhostofCain

Ancient Mariner
I'd disagree with that when there's lines about Britain standing alone, and barbarians being at the gates. They might have been at the gates of Stalingrad but they were nowhere near the gates of London, or even the cliffs of Dover.
Not to mention the bullshit of

I faced them down
The only one
I stood alone


:puke:

There is more truth in Quest for Fire than in those lyrics. :lol:
 

srfc

Ancient Mariner
Not to mention the bullshit of

I faced them down
The only one
I stood alone


:puke:

There is more truth in Quest for Fire than in those lyrics. :lol:

I'll give Bruce the benefit of the doubt and say that those lyrics are referring to the pre-war period when he was a loan voice opposing appeasement, rather than it being Churchill claiming to have singlehandedly won WW2
 

GhostofCain

Ancient Mariner
I'll give Bruce the benefit of the doubt and say that those lyrics are referring to the pre-war period when he was a loan voice opposing appeasement, rather than it being Churchill claiming to have singlehandedly won WW2

But it is a blatant lie. There were many others against appeasement across the political spectrum, but Bruce is either unaware of it or, even worse, ignoring it to portray Churchill as this heroic figure who stood alone against the appeasers.
 

srfc

Ancient Mariner
But it is a blatant lie. There were many others against appeasement across the political spectrum, but Bruce is either unaware of it or, even worse, ignoring it to portray Churchill as this heroic figure who stood alone against the appeasers.

In character as Churchill who would certainly have had to ego to believe that he alone stood down the appeasers.
 
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