Russia invades Ukraine

Magnus

Pica Serdica
The UN works because it has universal membership. If we turn it into a club that excludes a superpower, it'll fragment and become even more useless.
It's why I also don't support kicking Russia out of, say, the International Space Station.
But russia is not a superpower, it's a gang with nukes. Which brings us back to my original question - is this about principles or physics?
 

bearfan

Ancient Mariner
The UN does some stuff okay-ish, it is rather bloated IMO. But from its charter the original mission was peace and it has clearly failed miserably and the USSR/russia is a massive reason for that. They are not a superpower, they are a big country with nukes, but very 3rd world-ish in many aspects and their veto power is insane at this point, it was insane in 1945, but there was no real choice then
 

Jer

The dotage of a dotard
Having a place where discussion can occur is more important than posturing to make a point, IMO. Yes, it sucks that Russia has UN veto power, but that was the price of getting them to participate in the first place. Countries often go off on their own and act without UN approval where necessary, so being in the UN ultimately doesn’t shackle anyone. Kicking Russia out of the G8 and sanctioning them covers all the useful bases already — I don’t see how kicking them out of the UN helps anything, really.
 

Jer

The dotage of a dotard
You cannot have a discussion with thugs, plain and simple. This should have become clear in 2014 - and even before that actually. Transnistria, South Ossetia, Abkhazia, do they ring a bell?
I’m not saying Putin can be talked down from his current course of action, but if you start expelling every corrupt country from the UN then it loses any semblance of value. If there were no Russia, China, Iran, and North Korea present in the UN (not to mention the less imposing, but equally disturbing countries), then what is a UN resolution worth? If lots of countries are unbound from the UN charter, then how much weight can it ever have?

Plus, there are plenty of Central and South American countries and Guantanamo detainees that could argue that the USA should be kicked out of the UN. If that happened, how much legitimacy could the UN possibly have?

Sometimes pragmatism has to trump principle. I think this is one of those situations.
 

Magnus

Pica Serdica
I’m not saying Putin can be talked down from his current course of action, but if you start expelling every corrupt country from the UN then it loses any semblance of value. If there were no Russia, China, Iran, and North Korea present in the UN (not to mention the less imposing, but equally disturbing countries), then what is a UN resolution worth? If lots of countries are unbound from the UN charter, then how much weight can it ever have?

Plus, there are plenty of Central and South American countries and Guantanamo detainees that could argue that the USA should be kicked out of the UN. If that happened, how much legitimacy could the UN possibly have?

Sometimes pragmatism has to trump principle. I think this is one of those situations.
I see what you mean Jer but I believe there's a big difference between being a corrupt country, or a disturbing country, and doing what russia has been doing since February this year.
 

bearfan

Ancient Mariner
I see what you mean Jer but I believe there's a big difference between being a corrupt country, or a disturbing country, and doing what russia has been doing since February this year.
I would edit February this year way back in time with their other expansionist moves starting with Chechnya (post USSR) .. certainly with Crimea at the earliest
 

Magnus

Pica Serdica
I would edit February this year way back in time with their other expansionist moves starting with Chechnya (post USSR) .. certainly with Crimea at the earliest
You cannot have a discussion with thugs, plain and simple. This should have become clear in 2014 - and even before that actually. Transnistria, South Ossetia, Abkhazia, do they ring a bell?
Yes of course, I just didn't want to repeat myself.
 

Jer

The dotage of a dotard
I see what you mean Jer but I believe there's a big difference between being a corrupt country, or a disturbing country, and doing what russia has been doing since February this year.
Fair enough, but who else should be kicked out of the UN, then? And if everyone who doesn’t pass muster is gone, who’s left?
 

Azas

It Was a Dark and Stormy Night
Fair enough, but who else should be kicked out of the UN, then? And if everyone who doesn’t pass muster is gone, who’s left?
Wrong thinking. Hello, Who needs a dysfunctional organization? Paralyzed by russian veto, etc. To stay relevant, UN must be reformed.
 
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Jer

The dotage of a dotard
Wrong thinking. Hello, Who needs a dysfunctional organization? Paralyzed by russian veto, etc. To stay relevant, UN must be reformed.
And again, how relevant will the UN be if you kick out everyone who’s ever invaded another country without provocation, or who has ever committed human rights abuses, or who has ever used their security council veto for self-serving purposes? Who would be left?
 

Azas

It Was a Dark and Stormy Night
I think putin is bluffing. US officials warned him many times neoficial, that response will be swift and deadly. putin has very few options, he knows he is loosing. For now, he wants to win some time. Winter is coming. He hopes Europe will freeze and the West will push Ukraine to negotiate with russia. But he is wrong. Ukraine will not back down.
 

jazz from hell

Ancient Mariner
Bruno Lezzi, military historian and high rank guy in the Swiss army, gave an interesting interview on the radio. He said that he’s yet again surprised by Putin’s gross miscalculation in the strategic assessment of the situation. He said this makes the situation really dangerous, Putin‘s irrational threatening with nuclear weapons has to be taken seriously and can’t just be swept away with the fact that Putin and his yes-men would corner themselves even more. He drew a parallel to the situation at the end of WW2, Hitler knowingly accepting the doom of Germany when he knew it was over for himself. Still, Lezzi said, letting Putin blackmail the west was not an option and expressed hope that there must be at least some rational thinking left in Putin’s circle.

Meanwhile, part of Italy seems to be going crazy.
 

Azas

It Was a Dark and Stormy Night
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