Religious beliefs

Onhell

Onhell

Infinite Dreamer
I've been reading old posts and a similar topic popped up back then. Religion being detrimental because people wouldn't accept "simple" medical procedures because of their beliefs and of course dying from them. Now I ask, Is this really that bad? Sure we appreciate life and we love it, but death is part of life and in this modern era we seem to deny that. Sure medicine is a wonderful thing, but keep in mind that antibiotics, in time, weaken our immune system making us more suceptible to infection and increasingly more dependant on medicine... in a way making us weaker. Many surgeries keep us alive after losing an estremity but what about the mental anguished suffered by the survivor? Ironically only cured after he/she reaches out to God? I guess what i'm trying to say is, in a very Brave New World/Green Soy/1984 way: isn't it beneficial for these people to refuse treatment and die? One can no longer argue that medicine itself has made us physically weaker hence infirior because we now value intellectuals more than construction workers. But we can argue overpopulation and homelessness. Technology is a wonderful thing and computers can each day do more things, but one more thing a computer can do is one less thing a human can do. Good? not really. It would be good if the world population were decreasing, and it's not, quite the opposite. Hence, These people that have the guts to deny treatment or accept their time to die.... aren't they really do us a favor?
 
Life is nothing but a sexually transmitted lethal disease... We should commit mass-suicide! [!--emo&:p--][img src=\'style_emoticons/[#EMO_DIR#]/tongue.gif\' border=\'0\' style=\'vertical-align:middle\' alt=\'tongue.gif\' /][!--endemo--]

What have you been smoking, Onhell? [!--emo&:blink:--][img src=\'style_emoticons/[#EMO_DIR#]/blink.gif\' border=\'0\' style=\'vertical-align:middle\' alt=\'blink.gif\' /][!--endemo--]

[!--emo&:D--][img src=\'style_emoticons/[#EMO_DIR#]/biggrin.gif\' border=\'0\' style=\'vertical-align:middle\' alt=\'biggrin.gif\' /][!--endemo--]
 
I think I will support my friend Onhell here, Maverick. Although I am not religious and I don't particularly believe in the Christian (or any other faith's) representation of God, the idea of letting someone who has suffered die is one that I wholeheartedly believe in. One can take it all back to Doctor Kevorkian in the USA. For those who don't remember, Dr. Kevorkian practised doctor-assisted suicide, by setting up a device that allowed a terminally ill patient to kill themselves. All they would have to do is press a button or flick a switch.

At one point there was a patient who was so far gone with Lou Gehrig's (spelling?) disease that the person could no longer even press the button. Dr. Kevorkian pressed the button for that person and was tried and convicted for murder. This person had signed all the appropriate waivers and forms to allow Dr. Kevorkian to assist the suicide. So the question is: did Kevorkian commit a crime or end someone's suffering?

Although he was found guilty of murder, I don't think he was. In times of war, it was not uncommon for a horribly mutilated comrade to be put out of their misery by a quick knife or a pistol. Although circumstances are different, they are not totally so. A hellish combat wound would mean a person would bleed to death over a period of time, usually before help could arrive. A terminal disease does the same, but over years and decades. In their case, help likely never will arrive.

Now, to the other side.

Humans seem to have only one thing that puts us above the other beings on this earth: perserverance. Which transfers into adaptibility. For millenia we've been doing things we really shouldn't be able to. Everything from massive engineering projects like the Pyramids to something simple, like adapting to a lost limb. Onhell, you say that relief is only given when a person turns to God? I find that fairly difficult to believe. A person can simply will themselves to live. Religion can be a source of that will. But I think there are others. The phrase "Too mean to die" comes into my mind.

As for the use of technology: I believe, firmly, that there will never be a "Matrix" type scenario on Earth. We're too independent for that. Although some humans are admittedly lazy, most would never stand for such a total dependence. The development of antibiotics, on the other hand, still prolongs life and raises living conditions. Although diseases adapt, so do we!
 
[!--QuoteBegin-Onhell+Jan 11 2004, 02:02 PM--][div class=\'quotetop\']QUOTE(Onhell @ Jan 11 2004, 02:02 PM)[/div][div class=\'quotemain\'][!--QuoteEBegin--] One can no longer argue that medicine itself has made us physically weaker hence infirior... [/quote]
Ever had your life saved by fast-thinking and acting doctors, Onhell? I have. [!--emo&:D--][img src=\'style_emoticons/[#EMO_DIR#]/biggrin.gif\' border=\'0\' style=\'vertical-align:middle\' alt=\'biggrin.gif\' /][!--endemo--]

Granted, modern medicine has some faults, but show me one single area of human endeavor which is perfect.

I understand where you're coming from, but I think you're going too far.
 
I've had operations to save my hearing and might soon have one to save my heart.

Modern medicine does have it's faults, but religion also has faults. Personally I'm an athiest so I would argue against there being a god altogether.

And about letting the suffering die, I think it's up to the sufferer in question, which raises the idea of euthanasia-the choice to die if you're terminally ill.

Personally being athiest, I think there's is nothing after death so I want the life I do have to last as long as possible, no matter how much I suffer. Suffering is part of life, just as fear, torture, pain and death are.
 
I really like the responses, specially yours mav. [!--emo&:D--][img src=\'style_emoticons/[#EMO_DIR#]/biggrin.gif\' border=\'0\' style=\'vertical-align:middle\' alt=\'biggrin.gif\' /][!--endemo--] but I don't like the direction the topic is taking. this is NOT a religion vs. science thing at all. It's more a "look where we're headed" type thing. sure surgeries are great, but surgeries don't make your immune system weaker, at the rate we are taking pills and syrups soon it will become a trait that will pass down to future generations. We are also living longer. Before world war II there was no such thing as retirement, you worked till you died. After WWII you got to retire at 65, granted you were also expected to live until 75, but now you have people going for 95 more and more. That's 20 more years than in the past, 20 more years they are not working (and this may sound cold and insesitive) 20 years they are getting government money that could be used for education/health etc. Again our Population is INCREASING but everyday there are less jobs for humans. LooseCannon mentioned that people would never let it happen. Look at the U.S today. you think the founding fathers had pictured such a wonderful nation? 200 years ago Congress was full of intellectuals, philosophers, inventors, now it's full of money grubbing bastards. AND PEOPLE LET THAT HAPPEN.... more later.
 
You folks may be a bit young, but have you heard of this great tv series called [a href=\'http://users.snowcrest.net/fox/logantv/\' target=\'_blank\']Logan's Run[/a]? It was aired in the late 70s and I loved it as a kid, never missing an episode.

Basically, the story took place in the 24th century after a nuclear war had supposedly rendered the surface of the Earth inhospitable for life and humans were living in a city protected by a huge glass-like dome. Apparently, it was all a lie so all would stay within the city and "safe" from the outside world. Logan manages to escape the city, discovering that the outside is safe, and tries to look for the truth of the planet's past... and that's how the story begins!

The reason I mention it is that a part of the story line was rather disturbing: in order to keep the population growth under control, all citizens reaching the age of 30 were sacrificed (the rulers made sure that their deaths appeared as a "transit" to a higher plane of life, but it's too long to explain simply here). That was a very efficient way to control the local population, although completely based on lies and deceit...

Well, this is what came to my mind after I read you little exchange and I thought I'd share it with you [!--emo&^_^--][img src=\'style_emoticons/[#EMO_DIR#]/happy.gif\' border=\'0\' style=\'vertical-align:middle\' alt=\'happy.gif\' /][!--endemo--]

Should we take this as an example and cull all individuals older than 30 on the planet in order to keep the human population to a "reasonable" level?
*runs for his life!* [!--emo&:D--][img src=\'style_emoticons/[#EMO_DIR#]/biggrin.gif\' border=\'0\' style=\'vertical-align:middle\' alt=\'biggrin.gif\' /][!--endemo--]
 
Anyway, life's a bitch. Here's the way it should be:

[img src=\'http://www.stud.ntnu.no/~shane/stasj/pics/humor/div/gcostanza2.jpg\' border=\'0\' alt=\'user posted image\' /]

[!--emo&:nana:--][img src=\'style_emoticons/[#EMO_DIR#]/lambada.gif\' border=\'0\' style=\'vertical-align:middle\' alt=\'lambada.gif\' /][!--endemo--]
 
yes, medicine lets the weak live, making them pass on "bad" genes to the next generations. but what would be the solution to that? we could for example stop any kind of treatment for all people and force all to have children after 50 (at 35 for women). so, many people carrying genes that cause hypertension, cancer, diabetes, artirioscleroza etc would die before having a chance to pass on their defective genes...

i believe that medicine is one of the highest humanitarian accomplishes that man has made, which tries to equalize all men to an extent, permitting them to enjoy life no matter how they were born. in this cruel world, were "man is born forever free and is everywhere in chains", medicine attempts to break some of those. it is the only sience that has the theoretic purpose to render itself useless.
 
[!--QuoteBegin-Maverick+Jan 14 2004, 12:19 PM--][div class=\'quotetop\']QUOTE(Maverick @ Jan 14 2004, 12:19 PM)[/div][div class=\'quotemain\'][!--QuoteEBegin--] Anyway, life's a bitch. Here's the way it should be:

[img src=\'http://www.stud.ntnu.no/~shane/stasj/pics/humor/div/gcostanza2.jpg\' border=\'0\' alt=\'user posted image\' /]

[!--emo&:nana:--][img src=\'style_emoticons/[#EMO_DIR#]/lambada.gif\' border=\'0\' style=\'vertical-align:middle\' alt=\'lambada.gif\' /][!--endemo--] [/quote]
[!--emo&:lol:--][img src=\'style_emoticons/[#EMO_DIR#]/lol[1].gif\' border=\'0\' style=\'vertical-align:middle\' alt=\'lol[1].gif\' /][!--endemo--] I love it [!--emo&:D--][img src=\'style_emoticons/[#EMO_DIR#]/biggrin.gif\' border=\'0\' style=\'vertical-align:middle\' alt=\'biggrin.gif\' /][!--endemo--]
 
You know, I firmly believe that the Founding Fathers were money-grubbing industrialists as well. But aside from that.

As for jobs. I don't see where you get that our job market is declining. We just are't properly accustomed to where the jobs are. I'll give an example. Nova Scotia has a fairly large island as part of it, Cape Breton Island. Since Gods know when, its major industry has been steel production at the Sydney Steel Company (Sysco). Well, since the 1960's Sysco had been non-profitable. The government poured millions upon millions of dollars into keeping Sysco going just so that the people in Cape Breton would have jobs. As a result, an entire generation ignored the developing trends of the world in general and went to work for Sysco or in the coal mines that produce the coke required to make steel.

Our province is 11.5 billion Canadian dollars in debt (around 8.5 billion US) and we have just under a million people living here. We have had a deficit until the past two years and due to foolish tax cuts we're going to have one again. The government decided to close Sysco to save money. So now a quarter of our province is unemployed and trained only in either mining coal old-school style (in tunnels, which is outmoded in the coal-mining industry elsewhere in Canada) or making steel in an outdated plant.

Now, the idea has been floated by Bombardier (which, among other things, builds parts for the F-22 and snowmobiles) to place a high-tech plant in Cape Breton which would employ around 10,000 people. Most of the jobs would be done by machines, yes, but there would still be 10,000 jobs in the plant. Unfortunately, there is no labour market in Cape Breton capable of handling sitting at a computer or robot maintenance. And that's just one plant.

The next generation of mankind will be specialized not in working in factories but in health care and in education. There's still many jobs, just not in what the people retiring are doing.


Now lets talk about social insurance or old-age pension or whatever the hell it's called.

Canada has what's called the Canadian Pension Plan, or CPP. It works the same essentially as what America has, so I'll just use that as a base. It seems like a horrible idea at first, because it is a lot of money coming in that is not always given to the people who need, and it is a lot spent. But this is money that artificially drives our economy and creates jobs. Lets face it. If social insurance didn't exist, old people would die after they retire. Then there would be no jobs, because of the future of the labour market as I already talked about. It's required to keep us going.

So yeah.

If you read through this all, you get a gold star!
 
Hello, I've got a gold star, great ! [!--emo&:p--][img src=\'style_emoticons/[#EMO_DIR#]/tongue.gif\' border=\'0\' style=\'vertical-align:middle\' alt=\'tongue.gif\' /][!--endemo--]

But, seriously, what's your point exactly ?

In your first post you began with religion belief versus medical care, then you're going towards something like "please let people with major disease just die because like this we will save money and job for the other" Hey ... That reminds me of a word I hear too much for my taste : eugenism.
And then you come with the huge problem of unemployment and then pension, and then "let's the old ones live, they bring money"...

Sorry, don't take it bad, but it seems to me you're a little bit confused.
You should really stop smoking [!--emo&:rolleyes:--][img src=\'style_emoticons/[#EMO_DIR#]/rolleyes.gif\' border=\'0\' style=\'vertical-align:middle\' alt=\'rolleyes.gif\' /][!--endemo--]
I really do think there's too many subjects here...
But congratulations on posting about such subjects, very interesting...
 
Well I knew there was a risk of being misunderstanding...
Basically I'm talking to Onhell, but...
This is not a negative critic. I really think all these subjects are very interesting to discuss. I agree with some points and disagree on others, that's it. But, while reading, I found that there was a mix of so many things... Some idea leading to another without apparent link... It's just it doesn't seem so clear at all.
And please, don't feel under attack ! This is not the official BB [!--emo&:p--][img src=\'style_emoticons/[#EMO_DIR#]/tongue.gif\' border=\'0\' style=\'vertical-align:middle\' alt=\'tongue.gif\' /][!--endemo--]
 
Quite a few good pionts, On Hell

but I think Religion is something that people will turn to when humans fail, as being kinda religious i have seen this over and over again and when humans are too far gone for any treatment they give up on God and start blaming but when the fuinal hour comes they repent very wierd but thats human they need something to blame something to put thier trust in when all else fails

sorry for getting side tracked ....
 
No worries, Master Owl, I promise I shan't get angry...I was just wondering if I had to try and reply to ya.
 
Wow! I don't show up for a few weeks and everything changes! All good points, specially Owl's, I am ranting all over the place, but, at least in my mind [!--emo&:D--][img src=\'style_emoticons/[#EMO_DIR#]/biggrin.gif\' border=\'0\' style=\'vertical-align:middle\' alt=\'biggrin.gif\' /][!--endemo--] they are connected. And lets see if I can connect the dots in this one. In my First one i did mention Science vs Religion, MEANING that people either take one camp or the other, but never seem to see that BOTH are limited and that really talk about completely different things. "The bible is bullshit" scientists say because earth wasn't created in 7 days. So what? is that really what this story is trying to tell you? no, just that everything has a begining. I am religious, but I also believe in evolution. To me Religion is a personal experiance (even Catholicism which is a 'universal' institution). It is for you to find peace and understanding and as a good balance between what matters (your faminly, friends, YOUR happiness) and the material world of comercialism. I do believe in medicine as well. SMX asked me if I have had a life saving surgery...I have. I fell nine feet (about three meters) when I was seven months old, my brain swelled to the point of loosing movement in my entire left side for two days. Doctors had to cut my skull so my brain could breathe and swell without causing further damage. I had a metal plate until age nine and to this day have an Acrylic plate (the glass surrounding hockey rinks). Should I have died? I say no. why? I was a healthy child, the doctors said that if I wouldn't have recovered as quickly...operation or not i would have died. also I was a CHILD. my grandmother recently passed away (last saturday) at the age of 98. She contracted pnemonia last october and would have died if it weren't for modern medicine. She died anyway months later. Her suffering was only prolonged by modern medicine. How many people's suffering is only prolonged? how many are over medicated? too many. every hyperactive child in america takes ridilyn, sad? take prozac or zoloft! We jump the gun on too many things. Yes her long life did provide jobs for doctors, nurses, social workers and what not, but in America, everything is do it yourself, from pumping gas to remodeling your home, sure it's because labor is expensive but also that takes away jobs. people are studying how to use a computer but not how to build one, learning how to drive a car but not to maintain it. so on and so forth. Logan's Run, Terminator, The Matrix, Brave New World, 1984 are scary futures....but some of the ideas exist today and others are not so far away.
If you read all of this Loose Cannon will give you a second gold star. [!--emo&:rock:--][img src=\'style_emoticons/[#EMO_DIR#]/headbang.gif\' border=\'0\' style=\'vertical-align:middle\' alt=\'headbang.gif\' /][!--endemo--]
 
Science vs Religion.......... im not going there ...

good books you can always throw in the movie Total recall as well same type of concept... but science will die in the end and who needs to operate all these computerised shit anyway ?? humans ... or some cyborg ....

I am kinda religous as well but i dont believe in the evolution theory and im no descendant from the apes...

if you ever heard of the group Project 86 they have done a cd called truthless heroes read the lyrics its based on the book 1984 and brave new world very good and its true why does humans always in the final moments turn to religion turn to God ????

Big brother has already started in more ways than we all know walk down a main street how many cameras are they installing or installed....
 
[!--QuoteBegin-Onhell+Jan 27 2004, 08:23 PM--][div class=\'quotetop\']QUOTE(Onhell @ Jan 27 2004, 08:23 PM)[/div][div class=\'quotemain\'][!--QuoteEBegin--] I had a metal plate until age nine and to this day have an Acrylic plate (the glass surrounding hockey rinks). [/quote]
Cool! Is it also transparent like at hockey rinks? In other words, if you shaved your head, could we see your brain? [!--emo&:D--][img src=\'style_emoticons/[#EMO_DIR#]/biggrin.gif\' border=\'0\' style=\'vertical-align:middle\' alt=\'biggrin.gif\' /][!--endemo--]

Your points about your grandmother strike a chord with me. I have a grandfather who is now 88, and he's basically been kept alive by doctors for at least a decade now. Sure, the average human lifespan in developed countries is increasing, but those extra years aren't always fun and games. I wouldn't go so far as to say that my grandfather is suffering, but I think he's getting tired of going to the hospital every few months because even a "minor" cold threatens his life now.

Then again, my 96-year-old great aunt is living in a nursing home, in great health, having a great time, and looks like she might live forever. Of course, she's completely senile, remembering very little and only recognizing my grandmother, but she's happy as a clam nonetheless.
 
I'll check that album out Tabor, and yes, some European countries do have cameras to catch criminals in the act. SMX, Actually my skull has fully regenerated and grew OVER the plate! lol but you can see it in an x-ray, kinda neat too! My grandmother was also senile leaving back in 1930 or so, only rarely recognizing her own children. She never suffered until last october, when, I believe, it was her time. I have mixed feelings about nursing homes, some part of me blames their negligence for my grandmother's death, but at the same time I know it is impossible to give personal care to 100 old people when there are only 20 nurses or sometimes less.
 
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