Metal Essentials I: Grandfathers of Metal (1970 - 1975) - FINAL ROUND - Zeppelin vs Sabbath
- Thread starter Mosh
- Start date
I’m not sure how many tracks would make my personal “best of Queen” playlist, but think Sheer Heart Attack is among the most even of Queen albums. It’s as all over the map as most Queen albums, but the vast majority lands in spaces I can follow.
Lots of Secret Treaties material would make my BOC list, but only Telepaths as captured on this album. I’d be using live or re-recorded versions of my other favourites because the atmosphere, arranging and playing is notably better. I think Treaties was a potentially all-time album where the dry, lifeless production failed the material. Compare the way the band sounds here to the Martin Birch produced Fire of Unknown Origin and the difference is stunning.
Flaws aside, I love both these albums and consider them sleeper favourites.
Took a long time for the Doors-ish drone of Career of Evil to burrow it’s way in, but now I’m hooked. It’s atypical of the songs I typically like because there are no grand flourishes or raw aggression, just a slow-burn, insistent nastiness. Love the lyrics and the way everything but the drums drop out as they refuse to apologize. I give it a slight edge over Brighton Rock because it has a calculated compositional precision the latter lacks. Or maybe it’s the annoying teenage girl falsetto Freddie adopts in the verses. Because otherwise Brighton Rock is a cool hard rock song, light and fun with a good chorus and some killer guitar playing.
Speaking of killer, there is nothing that isn’t killer about Killer Queen - composition, arrangement, performance, sound.. it’s one of history’s most gifted bands firing on all cylinders. The solo gets me every time. Has there ever been a musical break that is so perfectly part of a song? The Subhuman has a cool, dark dream vibe, a cool pre-chorus riff and some tasty, emotive playing, but it doesn’t stand a chance here.
It’s the live version of Dominance and Submission that carries round three for me. It adds a layer of aggression to a creepy, dangerous composition, along with some fun audience interplay and awesome Buck Dharma improvisation. Tenement Funster has got a great dirty groove that Queen would later explore to greater effect and a good vocal from Roger, Flick of The Wrist is pure Freddie, all camp and nastiness and layers and things coming from all directions. Lily works when I’m in the right mood and is short enough when I’m not. Two good songs and an OK one that kind of work as a unit.
Now I’m Here isn’t getting enough love. Such a good '70s hard rock track with good energy, good riffing and some catchy vocals. Unfortunately for it, ME262 is one of my favourite BOC tracks (again live with the signature 5-guitar finale) awesome riffing, cool melodies and very evocative of the subject matter. As someone posted earlier, very much a precursor to Aces High and other war epics.
Stone Cold Crazy is just a great high energy thrash tune. Really, one-statement aggression doesn’t get much better. Harvester of Eyes has a cool riff and is an OK song, but falls far short in comparison.
I like Misfire, just a light, fun, little pop song. I like Flaming Telepaths a lot more, nothing light or fun about it. It’s a highly underrated, well-composed and highly nuanced song with some effortless transitions. Unlike most of Secret Treaties the production is right on point and the talent of the band shines. The synthesizer solo burst is an unforgettable moment and guitar solo that follows is a thing of beauty. Allen Lanier’s piano fills are pure Blue Oyster Cult and this might be the first time we start to see how good a vocalist Eric Bloom would become.
Lap of the Gods is one of those Queen songs that straddles the line for me. Sometimes I can feel it, and others it’s a bit much. Astronomy is one of my favourite songs of all time, even this version, which is probably my third favourite. It just has the great epic feel, like it’s giving you hints about the mysteries of the universe.
If I had to put numbers on it:
Brighton Rock 8 Career of Evil 8
Killer Queen 10 Subhuman 8
Medley 8 Dominance and Submission 9
Now I’m Here 9 ME262 10
Stone Cold Crazy 10 Harvester of Eyes 7
Misfire 7 Flaming Telepaths 10
Lap of the Gods 7 Astronomy 10
Lots of Secret Treaties material would make my BOC list, but only Telepaths as captured on this album. I’d be using live or re-recorded versions of my other favourites because the atmosphere, arranging and playing is notably better. I think Treaties was a potentially all-time album where the dry, lifeless production failed the material. Compare the way the band sounds here to the Martin Birch produced Fire of Unknown Origin and the difference is stunning.
Flaws aside, I love both these albums and consider them sleeper favourites.
Took a long time for the Doors-ish drone of Career of Evil to burrow it’s way in, but now I’m hooked. It’s atypical of the songs I typically like because there are no grand flourishes or raw aggression, just a slow-burn, insistent nastiness. Love the lyrics and the way everything but the drums drop out as they refuse to apologize. I give it a slight edge over Brighton Rock because it has a calculated compositional precision the latter lacks. Or maybe it’s the annoying teenage girl falsetto Freddie adopts in the verses. Because otherwise Brighton Rock is a cool hard rock song, light and fun with a good chorus and some killer guitar playing.
Speaking of killer, there is nothing that isn’t killer about Killer Queen - composition, arrangement, performance, sound.. it’s one of history’s most gifted bands firing on all cylinders. The solo gets me every time. Has there ever been a musical break that is so perfectly part of a song? The Subhuman has a cool, dark dream vibe, a cool pre-chorus riff and some tasty, emotive playing, but it doesn’t stand a chance here.
It’s the live version of Dominance and Submission that carries round three for me. It adds a layer of aggression to a creepy, dangerous composition, along with some fun audience interplay and awesome Buck Dharma improvisation. Tenement Funster has got a great dirty groove that Queen would later explore to greater effect and a good vocal from Roger, Flick of The Wrist is pure Freddie, all camp and nastiness and layers and things coming from all directions. Lily works when I’m in the right mood and is short enough when I’m not. Two good songs and an OK one that kind of work as a unit.
Now I’m Here isn’t getting enough love. Such a good '70s hard rock track with good energy, good riffing and some catchy vocals. Unfortunately for it, ME262 is one of my favourite BOC tracks (again live with the signature 5-guitar finale) awesome riffing, cool melodies and very evocative of the subject matter. As someone posted earlier, very much a precursor to Aces High and other war epics.
Stone Cold Crazy is just a great high energy thrash tune. Really, one-statement aggression doesn’t get much better. Harvester of Eyes has a cool riff and is an OK song, but falls far short in comparison.
I like Misfire, just a light, fun, little pop song. I like Flaming Telepaths a lot more, nothing light or fun about it. It’s a highly underrated, well-composed and highly nuanced song with some effortless transitions. Unlike most of Secret Treaties the production is right on point and the talent of the band shines. The synthesizer solo burst is an unforgettable moment and guitar solo that follows is a thing of beauty. Allen Lanier’s piano fills are pure Blue Oyster Cult and this might be the first time we start to see how good a vocalist Eric Bloom would become.
Lap of the Gods is one of those Queen songs that straddles the line for me. Sometimes I can feel it, and others it’s a bit much. Astronomy is one of my favourite songs of all time, even this version, which is probably my third favourite. It just has the great epic feel, like it’s giving you hints about the mysteries of the universe.
If I had to put numbers on it:
Brighton Rock 8 Career of Evil 8
Killer Queen 10 Subhuman 8
Medley 8 Dominance and Submission 9
Now I’m Here 9 ME262 10
Stone Cold Crazy 10 Harvester of Eyes 7
Misfire 7 Flaming Telepaths 10
Lap of the Gods 7 Astronomy 10
Cornfed Hick
Ancient Mariner
When are we calling this? Queen has commanding leads in 4 of the 7 matchups. Biggest upset is "Now I'm Here" NOT beating (merely tied with) "ME262," which is affirmatively awful. Normally I trust mckindog's judgment, but to give that song a "10"? Oh my. Sounds like the bastard of an unholy union between Molly Hatchet and Kiss. That's not a compliment.
Confeos
Game time started.
Brighton Rock vs Career of Evil
Killer Queen vs Subhuman
Tenement Funster/Flick of the Wrist/Lily of the Valley vs Dominance and Submission
Now I'm Here vs ME 262
Stone Cold Crazy vs Harvester of Eyes
Misfire vs Flaming Telepaths
In the Lap of the Gods Revisited vs Astronomy
4-3 for Secret Treaties.
Neither album manages to keep momentum all the way through, I think. Sheer Heart Attack starts off very strong, but I lose interest after "Now I'm Here". "Stone Cold Crazy" honestly never did anything for me. On the other hand, Secret Treaties is pretty unremarkable at first (aside from "Subhuman", which I love), but picks up and saves the really engaging stuff for last. I might pick "Astronomy" as the very best song in this round. In the end, I think the reason I give the edge to BOC is the overall darker and more brooding themes and sound on Secret Treaties - I'm can be a big horror-nerd, and I totally get @mckindog's take on the lyrics.
@Cornfed Hick - I will not have you speak ill of Molly Hatchet!
Killer Queen vs Subhuman
Tenement Funster/Flick of the Wrist/Lily of the Valley vs Dominance and Submission
Now I'm Here vs ME 262
Stone Cold Crazy vs Harvester of Eyes
Misfire vs Flaming Telepaths
In the Lap of the Gods Revisited vs Astronomy
4-3 for Secret Treaties.
Neither album manages to keep momentum all the way through, I think. Sheer Heart Attack starts off very strong, but I lose interest after "Now I'm Here". "Stone Cold Crazy" honestly never did anything for me. On the other hand, Secret Treaties is pretty unremarkable at first (aside from "Subhuman", which I love), but picks up and saves the really engaging stuff for last. I might pick "Astronomy" as the very best song in this round. In the end, I think the reason I give the edge to BOC is the overall darker and more brooding themes and sound on Secret Treaties - I'm can be a big horror-nerd, and I totally get @mckindog's take on the lyrics.
@Cornfed Hick - I will not have you speak ill of Molly Hatchet!
Queen destroys Blue Oyster Cult in what is probably the biggest thrashing we've seen so far: 5 - 2. Only one pairing was remotely close (and it was the one pair that Queen did not deserve to win IMO). Anyway, we've reached our final pairing of the preliminary stages!
Round 5: Episode IV
A discussion of early Heavy Metal almost always begins with Black Sabbath and Led Zeppelin. Therefore, it was inevitable that they appear in this game pitted against each other. It is probably an unfair comparison - one is purely a Heavy Metal band, the other is a more blues based hard rock band that flirted with Metal (among a million other styles of music). But, as Blue Oyster Cult would tell you, this game is not about what’s fair. Regardless of their lack of stylistic similarities, there is no denying the fact that both bands are among the best selling and most influential of any rock band.
That’s not to say they are entirely dissimilar, however. Both Sabbath and Zeppelin are heavily rooted in the blues, although they took different approaches to the style. The music also largely relied on heaviness and power, two defining traits of Metal. Additionally, besides being the fourth albums for the respective bands, Vol. IV and Zeppelin IV share some non-superficial similarities. They show both bands branching out from their established sounds and beginning journeys of musical discovery that would continue throughout their careers. A hallmark of bands from the 70s was that they were not afraid to step out of their comfort zone in regards to musical style. A rock band could be more than a rock band. Black Sabbath could write a soul song and Led Zeppelin could write proggy folk epic. Often times, being adventurous paid off. Don’t get me wrong, these bands were experimenting from the beginning, but on these albums the experimental side is just as prevalent (if not more so) than the heavy/bluesy sound that dominated previous albums. I include these albums because, from what I can tell, this is where Zeppelin and Sabbath truly became Zeppelin and Sabbath. Now let us savage these great moments in Metal history by pitting them against each other in a series of possibly unfair matchups.
Round 5: Episode IV
A discussion of early Heavy Metal almost always begins with Black Sabbath and Led Zeppelin. Therefore, it was inevitable that they appear in this game pitted against each other. It is probably an unfair comparison - one is purely a Heavy Metal band, the other is a more blues based hard rock band that flirted with Metal (among a million other styles of music). But, as Blue Oyster Cult would tell you, this game is not about what’s fair. Regardless of their lack of stylistic similarities, there is no denying the fact that both bands are among the best selling and most influential of any rock band.
That’s not to say they are entirely dissimilar, however. Both Sabbath and Zeppelin are heavily rooted in the blues, although they took different approaches to the style. The music also largely relied on heaviness and power, two defining traits of Metal. Additionally, besides being the fourth albums for the respective bands, Vol. IV and Zeppelin IV share some non-superficial similarities. They show both bands branching out from their established sounds and beginning journeys of musical discovery that would continue throughout their careers. A hallmark of bands from the 70s was that they were not afraid to step out of their comfort zone in regards to musical style. A rock band could be more than a rock band. Black Sabbath could write a soul song and Led Zeppelin could write proggy folk epic. Often times, being adventurous paid off. Don’t get me wrong, these bands were experimenting from the beginning, but on these albums the experimental side is just as prevalent (if not more so) than the heavy/bluesy sound that dominated previous albums. I include these albums because, from what I can tell, this is where Zeppelin and Sabbath truly became Zeppelin and Sabbath. Now let us savage these great moments in Metal history by pitting them against each other in a series of possibly unfair matchups.
The Dissident
Ancient Mariner
I guess I have to listen to Vol IV now, may as well play IV again while I’m at it
MrKnickerbocker
clap hands
Black Dog has one of the most iconic start-stop verses in rock music history. It’s a jam for sure, but I don’t love all of the sections and specifically dislike every time Plant throws a male orgasm solo into a song. Wheels of Confusion is an interesting slab of Sabbath prog, but I find the majority of the transitions to be incredibly clunky. I love the ending, but Black Dog takes it for tighter songwriting.
Rock and Roll could have better lyrics, but overall it’s another ludicrously catchy, iconic early hard rock song. The music is basic boogie blues, but the vocal melodies clearly would inspire artists like Dio and Halford in the future. Tomorrow’s Dream has a solid Iommi riff and a good groove. Ozzy’s really pushing himself and there’s a cool turnaround riff that sounds like proto-Soundgarden, but the chorus dips into a weird, major-ish acid trip moment that I don’t like. Zeppelin takes it again for tighter songwriting.
The Battle of Evermore and Change are both long, rather monotonous ballads that don’t necessarily go anywhere. I like them both, but I’ll give Sabbath the edge here for having a hookier chorus.
Supernaut gets a really raw deal, because it’s probably the second best Sabbath song on this whole record, but Stairway to Heaven is unbeatable (even as overplayed as it is). I vote for Spirit’s “Taurus”.
Snowblind definitely wins. It’s catchy and heavy and cool and has a neat break half-way through. The best of the Sabbath tunes here. Also, I truly hate the melodies and movement of Misty Mountain Hop.
Cornucopia is a ripping tune with some killer riffs and Ozzy actually singing over the riffs instead of with them! Sure, there’s some weird transitions, but it’s still an easy win over the weird, acoustic smoke bowl of Going To California.
When The Levee Breaks is a really cool take on an old blues song, with a driving riff and beat. It’s cool, but once again Robert Plant orgasms a couple times throughout. Under The Sun suffers from some clunky transitions, but the riffs carry it through. I’m not even sure if Iommi even knows what notes he’s playing at some times and I think the more upbeat section lags a bit, but still, it’s more interesting than the Zeppelin tune. The final riff section before the ending is just golden.
4-3 for Sabbath.
Rock and Roll could have better lyrics, but overall it’s another ludicrously catchy, iconic early hard rock song. The music is basic boogie blues, but the vocal melodies clearly would inspire artists like Dio and Halford in the future. Tomorrow’s Dream has a solid Iommi riff and a good groove. Ozzy’s really pushing himself and there’s a cool turnaround riff that sounds like proto-Soundgarden, but the chorus dips into a weird, major-ish acid trip moment that I don’t like. Zeppelin takes it again for tighter songwriting.
The Battle of Evermore and Change are both long, rather monotonous ballads that don’t necessarily go anywhere. I like them both, but I’ll give Sabbath the edge here for having a hookier chorus.
Supernaut gets a really raw deal, because it’s probably the second best Sabbath song on this whole record, but Stairway to Heaven is unbeatable (even as overplayed as it is). I vote for Spirit’s “Taurus”.
Snowblind definitely wins. It’s catchy and heavy and cool and has a neat break half-way through. The best of the Sabbath tunes here. Also, I truly hate the melodies and movement of Misty Mountain Hop.
Cornucopia is a ripping tune with some killer riffs and Ozzy actually singing over the riffs instead of with them! Sure, there’s some weird transitions, but it’s still an easy win over the weird, acoustic smoke bowl of Going To California.
When The Levee Breaks is a really cool take on an old blues song, with a driving riff and beat. It’s cool, but once again Robert Plant orgasms a couple times throughout. Under The Sun suffers from some clunky transitions, but the riffs carry it through. I’m not even sure if Iommi even knows what notes he’s playing at some times and I think the more upbeat section lags a bit, but still, it’s more interesting than the Zeppelin tune. The final riff section before the ending is just golden.
4-3 for Sabbath.
Confeos
Game time started.
Black Dog vs Wheels of Confusion
Rock and Roll vs Tomorrow's Dream
The Battle of Evermore vs Changes
Stairway to Heaven vs Supernaut
Misty Mountain Hop vs Snowblind
Going to California vs Cornucopia
When the Levee Breaks vs Under the Sun
5-2 win for Sabbath.
First time listening to Zep's IV in full actually, was pleasantly surprised with the Jethro Tull-y vibe of "Going to California", although "Cornucopia" is still the better song. "Misty Mountain Hop" is incredibly boring. Also feel bad for "Supernaut", that riff is amazing, but how can it compete with "Stairway"?
Rock and Roll vs Tomorrow's Dream
The Battle of Evermore vs Changes
Stairway to Heaven vs Supernaut
Misty Mountain Hop vs Snowblind
Going to California vs Cornucopia
When the Levee Breaks vs Under the Sun
5-2 win for Sabbath.
First time listening to Zep's IV in full actually, was pleasantly surprised with the Jethro Tull-y vibe of "Going to California", although "Cornucopia" is still the better song. "Misty Mountain Hop" is incredibly boring. Also feel bad for "Supernaut", that riff is amazing, but how can it compete with "Stairway"?
I’m going to try and wrap this one up early to make up for lost time from previous rounds. Any last minute votes? @Forostar ?
I actually thought Supernaut and Stairway were well matched. They’re both held in high regard and maybe Supernaut has the benefit of not being overplayed. Guess I was wrong.
I actually thought Supernaut and Stairway were well matched. They’re both held in high regard and maybe Supernaut has the benefit of not being overplayed. Guess I was wrong.
The Dissident
Ancient Mariner
I was gonna listen/vote tomorrow but odds are the vote would be in favour of Zep, never been a big Ozzy fan
The Dissident
Ancient Mariner
Found Time to listen to both today!
[8] Black Dog V Wheels of Confusion [9]
[8.5] Rock and Roll V Tomorrow's Dream [8.5] [Guitar work wins this one]
[8.5] The Battle of Evermore V Changes [9]
[10] Stairway to Heaven V Supernaut [9.5]
[9] Misty Mountain Hop V Snowblind [8.5]
[8.5] Going to California V Cornicopia [8]
[10] When The Levee Breaks V Under The Sun [8]
Side 1 of Vol 4 is really strong but overall side 2 of both albums holds some really strong tracks but the match ups just weren't in Sabbaths favour. That being said Vol 4 really suprised me with how much I liked it overall, definitely gonna have to give the first 3 albums a proper listen in the near future.
[8] Black Dog V Wheels of Confusion [9]
[8.5] Rock and Roll V Tomorrow's Dream [8.5] [Guitar work wins this one]
[8.5] The Battle of Evermore V Changes [9]
[10] Stairway to Heaven V Supernaut [9.5]
[9] Misty Mountain Hop V Snowblind [8.5]
[8.5] Going to California V Cornicopia [8]
[10] When The Levee Breaks V Under The Sun [8]
Side 1 of Vol 4 is really strong but overall side 2 of both albums holds some really strong tracks but the match ups just weren't in Sabbaths favour. That being said Vol 4 really suprised me with how much I liked it overall, definitely gonna have to give the first 3 albums a proper listen in the near future.
Cornfed Hick
Ancient Mariner
Stairway was going to (and should) steamroll any song it was matched up against. Supernaut is great though.
I am not all that surprised that this forum is slightly favoring Sabbath over Zeppelin (though the Zeppelin album is better, IMO). But I am VERY surprised that "Going To California" is holding its own against the far heavier "Cornucopia"!
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