GREATEST METAL ALBUM CUP - Winner: Iron Maiden - Seventh Son of a Seventh Son!

Totally voting for my own nominee for reasons previously discussed. Winner: Dokken

This is definitely the best showing from Iseditionist Earth in the GMAC so far. Horror Show has a lot of ambition, but it often falls far short in execution. The production is weak, a lot of the songwriting is aimless, the vocal lines often don’t work with the riffs, and Matt Barlow comes off like he has multiple personality disorder, bouncing around between sounding like Paul Stanley, Blaze Bayley, Hansi Kursch, and Geoff Tate in full-on hammy mode. He sounds good on the calmer and lower-register parts, but the shrill and hammy stuff...not so much. I will say that “The Phantom Opera Ghost” and “Ghost Of Freedom” are well-constructed songs, and the harmonized guitar and pipe organ trade-off bit in the former song is great. There are some nice dynamics on this album, and a handful of other particularly good guitar passages, but a lot of this just sounds like a C-list try-hard band having a very good day. (And what’s up with the rhythm section crimes on “Wolf”? Ouch.) No Prayer For The Dying would lose to a lot of albums in this contest, but based on my listening experience this should not be one of them. Sorry, Loosariesel Nightknickers 13, but Forostraapanael’s choice slips by with this one. If you disagree, feel free to buy some bear spray and storm the MaidenFans server room. Winner: Iron Maiden

Korn is just awful. The vocalist bounces around between imitating Trent Reznor and Kurt Cobain and just making noise. The “songs” are haphazard collections of boring riffs, drum bits, and noisy atmospherics. I guess if you liked the feeling this evoked and didn’t pay much attention to the music you might find a way to enjoy this, but I sure can’t. @Collin pulls a very lucky draw for so late in the game and The Final Frontier takes this one by default. Winner: Iron Maiden

This last match is the toughest one of the round. Both bands play masturbatory prog with cheesy synths. Both singers sound ridiculous when they try to sing “tough”, but sound great on the material that suits their voices. Both albums have long, overindulgent title pieces. Where they differ is that the Symphony X album has great neoclassical elements to it, but also comes off as a lower rent production with even cheesier synths than Dream Theater. The Odyssey’s title track is also better than the Dream Theater suite. I could really go either way here, but sorry Collosh, I’m going to invoke neoclassical bias and go with MidwickCannonbocker c.700 B.C.’s nominee. Winner: Symphony X
 
Jer said:
This last match is the toughest one of the round. Both bands play masturbatory prog with cheesy synths. Both singers sound ridiculous when they try to sing “tough”, but sound great on the material that suits their voices. Both albums have long, overindulgent title pieces. Where they differ is that the Symphony X album has great neoclassical elements to it, but also comes off as a lower rent production with even cheesier synths than Dream Theater. The Odyssey’s title track is also better than the Dream Theater suite. I could really go either way here, but sorry Collosh, I’m going to invoke neoclassical bias and go with MidwickCannonbocker c.700 B.C.’s nominee. Winner: Symphony X
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So...you think extreme vocals are lame AND that Russell Allen sounds “ridiculous” when singing with “toughness.”

Who are your favorite metal vocalists that are capable of sounding tough without using extreme techniques?
 
Six Degrees was the album that got me into Dream Theater, so it's not like I just threw it aside because it's Symphony X. But... well, yeah, I guess I kinda did. The Odyssey is just such a masterful album, hitting only a few relative lows (Incantations and the even weaker Turning) - but making up for them with three kickass metal tunes and three prog masterpieces.

Dream Theater's sixth album, on the other hand, has some really strong points. However, these reside mostly on the first half of the album. The Glass Prison and Blind Faith are easily 10/10 tracks, and The Great Debate is a 9/10 for me (I love Tool and the subject matter). Misunderstood is solid but a little too atmospheric/droning prog for me, and the same goes for Disappear (a song that has one exceptionally strong point in the ending emotive, climatic chorus). The immensely bloated title track, on the other hand, just does very little for me. There's some cool riffs and sections here and there, and I give the band credit for shoving several different styles into the entire "song," but it isn't even a tenth of what The Odyssey's title track is to me.
Jer said:
Both bands play masturbatory prog with cheesy synths. Both singers sound ridiculous when they try to sing “tough”, but sound great on the material that suits their voices. Both albums have long, overindulgent title pieces. Where they differ is that the Symphony X album has great neoclassical elements to it, but also comes off as a lower rent production with even cheesier synths than Dream Theater. The Odyssey’s title track is also better than the Dream Theater suite. I could really go either way here, but sorry Collosh, I’m going to invoke neoclassical bias and go with MidwickCannonbocker c.700 B.C.’s nominee. Winner: Symphony X
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Have you heard the three Symphony X albums that have been released after The Odyssey? They're heavier, less proggy, and Russell Allen sounds vicious and brutal on some of the songs. While I prefer the more neoclassical, polymetric, keyboard-laden earlier works of the band, those three albums are excellent slices of metal in their own right.
 
MrKnickerbocker said:
So...you think extreme vocals are lame AND that Russell Allen sounds “ridiculous” when singing with “toughness.”
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Yes. He sounds absurd at the beginning of “Inferno”, for example, where he’s chewing all the scenery in sight, doing an over the top caricature of Dio. He sounds great when he stops twirling his mustache.

MrKnickerbocker said:
Who are your favorite metal vocalists that are capable of sounding tough without using extreme techniques?
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James Hetfield is the gold standard, but it’s not like there’s a shortage of non-extreme vocalists who sound convincing in “tough mode”. Dave Mustaine, Paul Di’anno, pretty much any halfway decent thrash vocalist, Attila Dorn, Rob Halford, Trent Reznor, Ozzy, Stephen Pearcy, Jeff Scott Soto, Dee Snider, Kevin DuBrow, etc., etc. Throw a rock and you’ll probably hit one.
 
Jer said:
Yes. He sounds absurd at the beginning of “Inferno”, for example, where he’s chewing all the scenery in sight, doing an over the top caricature of Dio. He sounds great when he stops twirling his mustache.


James Hetfield is the gold standard, but it’s not like there’s a shortage of non-extreme vocalists who sound convincing in “tough mode”. Dave Mustaine, Paul Di’anno, pretty much any halfway decent thrash vocalist, Attila Dorn, Rob Halford, Trent Reznor, Ozzy, Stephen Pearcy, Jeff Scott Soto, Dee Snider, Kevin DuBrow, etc., etc. Throw a rock and you’ll probably hit one.
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Oh, ok. So as long as we're clear: Russell Allen sounds lame and not tough, but James Hetfield, Rob Halford, Trent Reznor, Dee Snider, and fucking Ozzy are the gold standard in terms of toughness.

I'm glad we've cleared that up.
 
Jer said:
No, Symphony X has been on my “check them out sometime” list since the late 90s, but I never got around to it until they showed up in the GMAC.
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Give it a shot when you get a chance. Paradise Lost is their most commercial, Iconoclast is pretty technical, and Underworld is a nice combination of the two. All three have songs where Russell sounds "tough" and even outright demonic at times.
 
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Jer said:
Can we all at least agree that LaBrie sounds ridiculous when he tries to sing “tough”? LOL...
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He is the worst. I love Train of Thought and other heavy Dream Theater material, but focusing on his vocals in a song like Honor Thy Father makes me cringe. LaBrie is excellent at the drawn-out epic proggy stuff, or when he's playing female characters on concept albums. But he is in no way a metal singer.
 
LooseCannon said:
That's what innovator means.
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I believe there's a difference: an innovator is someone that develops new variations and perspectives upon an already established sub genre. A creator is someone who invented the said sub genre and defined its basic structure. As an example: Sabbath created Heavy Metal while Priest and Maiden innovated it.
 
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I have a lot of time on my hands (and it seems like 6DOIT is going out) so I'll split this round in 2 posts.

First pair is also the first time I've listened to both of these songs (and bands probably). I really like riffage on both of them but vocals made me vote for Dokken. If this is how Udo sings throughout his discography, I don't think I will ever try to listen to anything he's on. Also, song titles and lyrics on those mid 80's B-tier metal bands? Damn, I realise now Spinal Tap didn't have to go far for their inspiration.

It's been a decade since I've listened to Horror Show, more so, it's been a decade since I've properly listened to Iced Earth at all. Actually, since Matt left (again!) and Stu Block came I maybe skimmed a couple of those new songs and it didn't interest me at all into digging deeper. I remember my friend telling me back in 2011/2012 that Matt left, but this time will still continue to be a policeman AND sing I thought: "Well, that won't sit well with Jon." But then my friend told me Matt is actually married to Jon's sister and that whole ordeal had a stink of: "Get your shit together guys." It may sound stupid, but after that and over the last decade I felt I "grown-over" Iced Earth. Those Stu tracks I've listened to shed a whole new light on their back catalogue and I've started to "remember" them as generic and unimaginative. Since then, Iced Earth became invisible to me until Jon became center of attention couple of days ago. I've avoided Iced Earth thread because and I'm trying to distance myself from the politics, especially when it mixes up with music. It's not that have a strong political opinion - it's the lack of it and the lack of interest to get one. So now I'm going to say something that doesn't make sense at all: Jon Schaffer is Iced Earth, but Iced Earth isn't Jon Schaffer. There.

I understand a lot of you guys who voiced their discontent with Iced Earth, and I get it, I really do. Music has to come from someone, and the more that music is loved, the affectation to those who make it will grow. If someday and/or somehow, we found out that our views on life and what's important to us contradicts with the views on life from the person we look up to - it will certainly affect the art he/she/they are making. For example, if Bruce started to belittle somebody on a national basis and turned out to be a first class bigot - I don't think I would praise him so much and listen to everything he's been on to with the same eyes. This being said, I had no particular feelings for Jon. I remember on the Maiden official forum, back in 07/08 when a guy (Freddie Vidales) shared his experience how he became a bass player for Iced Earth. IIRC Jon came across as down-to-Earth guy with strong work ethics. What happened in between - who knows?

Anywho, my point was that after listened to Horror Show, for the first time in years, I didn't see those all those news and memes of Jon storming the Capital. I saw a time, long ago, when I listened to Iced Earth and remembered how much I enjoyed those albums back then. I didn't see Jon, I heard Matt. And I get the comment he sounded stiff live. He definitely looked stiff live (saw them twice with Matt and between those two gigs you could notice that the guy probably practiced his stage presence.) I remembered how powerfull Matt sounded on those records and much does a singer mean to a band (Ripper may be a better singer, but those two albums of his didn't do anything for me). I remember how most of the tracks were either really heavy or really emotional and it didn't felt the envelope was pushed to far in both cases. Again, I don't have (and didn't have) strong feelings for either member of Iced Earth, past or present, so I could make that divide between the artist and the art.

On the other hand, the only things I liked on NPFTD (and still do) are the "fun tracks" particularly Holy Smoke, Hooks in You and Bring Your Daughter... Not that the other ones are particulary bad but when I know what Maiden are capable of, Tailgunner comes across as lacklusterish, Mother Russia as uninspired and No Prayer for the Dying as half-assed. Oh, and this has nothing to do with the music on the album itself, but I feel the need to rant about it. The cover on the NPFTD here is the old one, while the Youtube shows the new remastered one and I've got to admit - I hate those. First of all, that whole shading and light on Eddie has no goddamn sense if the grave keeper's light isn't there. Second, his face reaction makes the whole cover more sinister and in that way more interesting. And third one (and most important one for me) - the eyes. I effin' hate those CGI red bubbled eyes on the remasters. If something made Eddie recognizable is those deep black eye sockets with that small evil white dot inside of them. New remastered Eddie comes across as every other run-of-the-mill monster in a low-budget horror.

Third pair: I also asked myself what is Korn doing in league 5 until I saw LC's comment and that made me realise: there's a whole plead of KISS, Sabbath, Ozzy and glam metal albums coming and I'll vote against them in a second, like this pair. Truth be told, I have nothing against Korn. I've spent a fair amount of elementary school with earphones in my ears and their album Issues spent a lot of time in my Walkman (yes, I'm that old.) I've just heard a couple of tracks from that album and it was also fun remembering those time. But also, I've said it before and I'll say it again - something really epic has to come to make me vote against The Final Frontier. It's not just Iron Maiden bias, it's one of my favourite albums of all time. Why? IDK, I'll probably get deeper into it when I see it's heading for the exit.

And that brings me to my second post - Six Degrees of Inner Turbulence.
 
karljant said:
I believe there's a difference: an innovator is someone that develops new variations and perspectives upon an already established sub genre. A creator is someone who invented the said sub genre and defined its basic structure. As an example: Sabbath created Heavy Metal while Priest and Maiden innovated it.
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You are 100% correct.

While everyone agrees on the raw definition of inventor vs innovator, people disagree in framing. In this example someone might not see "heavy metal" as an invention, just an innovative approach to playing rock and roll. Evolutionary vs revolutionary. Also in your sentence you write "already established sub genre" which is highly subjective.

Some people argue that Beatles/Hendrix did the complete groundwork for heavy music and 1970- "Heavy Metal" is just taking this small piece of 'rock and roll' and going with it all the way. For them Sabbath's heavy distorted tritone is just a variation of the topic. Others argue that metal prior to early 1980s did not exist at all, Sabbath is a doom band while everyone bar the most 'extreme' NWOBHM is hard rock, metal proper stating with the first speed/black/thrash bands, in the age of true guitar distortion.
 
@Spambot The reason why I roast Schaffer are mainly two:
a) besides a couple of early albums and Gettysburg, I simply dislike Iced Earth
b) because of taking part on a shameful global scale display of bigotry.
Don't want to bring politics to the conversation but this is not the same than (as examples) Rage Against The Machine defending a repressive government like Cuba or an absolutely drunk Phil Anselmo screaming white power. Nah... this was big and ugly. Now if I was a fan I'd probably still listen to the records with almost the same enthusiasm but with a mix of disappointment while doing so. But fact is I'm not. And you're right: although Jon is the main composer in IE, IE isn't Jon and furthermore they already condemned his deeds. So I really support your take on this matter.
 
I think music in general is just a natural progression of already constructed concepts, so I don’t think “inventor” is as good a word as “innovator”. A lot of the examples in KJ’s post didn’t really invent their genres because you can look back and see other bands at the time doing that same stuff. Black Sabbath? “Helter Skelter” beat them. Metallica? Just a natural progression of NWOBHM, and the whole Bay Area scene was doing this at the same time. Death? Possessed beat them to it and inspired Chuck to push himself further. And even in Possessed’s case — it’s just a natural progression of thrash. True inventors are few and far between, but innovators you have a plethora of. And pretty much every artist innovates something.
 
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