GREATEST METAL ALBUM CUP - Winner: Iron Maiden - Seventh Son of a Seventh Son!
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karljant
Ancient Mariner
First off this must be the first time I truly enjoy all 8 albums in a round. Furthermore I consider them all to be classics with the exception of one record that happens to have been made recently by some dudes named Iron Maiden (so it almost counts as a classic for popularity matters). Let's go then:
Wow! WASP's debut... No I gave some serious spins on that in my turntable back in the day. WASP was one of the first metal bands I listened to (after Maiden, Sabbath, Ozzy, Dio, Metallica and Anthrax) and it's easy to see the reason why. Their mix of energy and shock rock is truly engaging for a 80's young boy. I Wanna Be Somebody is this full throttle unstoppable heavy rocker that back in the day I found impossible not to bang my head to. And while more contained songs featuring radio friendly hooks like LOVE Machine, Sleeping In The Fire or Tormentor were top tunes for young me they surely lost their appeal soon. On the other hand I can easily enjoy blistering metal attacks such as Hellion or On Your Knees even today. Those two tracks in particular are IMO the high points of the record. So yeah... back in the late 80's I really loved early WASP. But two years after Mr. Lawless took the (right) decision to leave all that Metal gore meets glam antics and being outrageous just for the fuck of it direction. And The Headless Children came out... Such was the impact and amazement it left me in (and to this very day I consider it to be one of the strongest 80's metal records) it completely eclipsed everything these dudes have done up till then (and I still think it does). But looking back I really enjoyed early WASP and still listen to a handful of tracks once in a while. Not only these tracks (Hellion, On Your Knees) but others from their following two albums like Widow Maker, Savage, Fistful Of Diamonds, Inside The Electric Circus, 9.5 Nasty, I'm Alive or Restless Gypsy. On the other hand I came to know Epicus Doomicus Metallicus shortly after besides the personal impact being equally huge, I think it was much more influential, aged much better and composition wise I regard it as on another level. So my vote goes to Candlemass.
Long Live Rock N' Roll is a fairly great album (to be honest I don't agree the slightest with the huge gap Rainbow fans put between this record and Rising). But... yeah.... Symbolic. Back when the album came out and I immediately bought it (obviously) these dudes just made what I consider to be their best album in Individual Thought Patterns and was quite worried Chuck's next release's impact could be a bit smoother (kinda like Spiritual Healing when compared with the ravenous Leprosy). And man I was wrong! Individual is still my favorite record in the band's career to this very day but Symbolic is a close number 2. From the get go there's the mix of technically mature Death/Thrash compositions on the title track: the balance between energy, heaviness, adrenaline and catchy accessible metal hooks on this opener is insane and obviously could only be spawned by a metal genius. The same works for the superb 1000 Eyes, Without Judgement or my personal favorite Empty Words. Chuck proves he can still make heavy stuff like Zero Tolerance, Misanthrope or the lengthy Perennial Quest. On the other hand Crystal Mountain and Sacred Serenity are much more melodic and easy listening while sounding as exciting and compose as the remainder of the album. Overall there are some common bonds that keep Symbolic tight as hell. The first one is the overall melodic guitar leads that are a common trait in every single song. The other one being the absolute balance between catchy and heavy even if it is in seperate parts of the song, an aspect hard to achieve especially in a genre such as Death Metal. To sum it up Symbolic is one of the best metal albums ever made and this one goes easily to Death.
Wow! WASP's debut... No I gave some serious spins on that in my turntable back in the day. WASP was one of the first metal bands I listened to (after Maiden, Sabbath, Ozzy, Dio, Metallica and Anthrax) and it's easy to see the reason why. Their mix of energy and shock rock is truly engaging for a 80's young boy. I Wanna Be Somebody is this full throttle unstoppable heavy rocker that back in the day I found impossible not to bang my head to. And while more contained songs featuring radio friendly hooks like LOVE Machine, Sleeping In The Fire or Tormentor were top tunes for young me they surely lost their appeal soon. On the other hand I can easily enjoy blistering metal attacks such as Hellion or On Your Knees even today. Those two tracks in particular are IMO the high points of the record. So yeah... back in the late 80's I really loved early WASP. But two years after Mr. Lawless took the (right) decision to leave all that Metal gore meets glam antics and being outrageous just for the fuck of it direction. And The Headless Children came out... Such was the impact and amazement it left me in (and to this very day I consider it to be one of the strongest 80's metal records) it completely eclipsed everything these dudes have done up till then (and I still think it does). But looking back I really enjoyed early WASP and still listen to a handful of tracks once in a while. Not only these tracks (Hellion, On Your Knees) but others from their following two albums like Widow Maker, Savage, Fistful Of Diamonds, Inside The Electric Circus, 9.5 Nasty, I'm Alive or Restless Gypsy. On the other hand I came to know Epicus Doomicus Metallicus shortly after besides the personal impact being equally huge, I think it was much more influential, aged much better and composition wise I regard it as on another level. So my vote goes to Candlemass.
Long Live Rock N' Roll is a fairly great album (to be honest I don't agree the slightest with the huge gap Rainbow fans put between this record and Rising). But... yeah.... Symbolic. Back when the album came out and I immediately bought it (obviously) these dudes just made what I consider to be their best album in Individual Thought Patterns and was quite worried Chuck's next release's impact could be a bit smoother (kinda like Spiritual Healing when compared with the ravenous Leprosy). And man I was wrong! Individual is still my favorite record in the band's career to this very day but Symbolic is a close number 2. From the get go there's the mix of technically mature Death/Thrash compositions on the title track: the balance between energy, heaviness, adrenaline and catchy accessible metal hooks on this opener is insane and obviously could only be spawned by a metal genius. The same works for the superb 1000 Eyes, Without Judgement or my personal favorite Empty Words. Chuck proves he can still make heavy stuff like Zero Tolerance, Misanthrope or the lengthy Perennial Quest. On the other hand Crystal Mountain and Sacred Serenity are much more melodic and easy listening while sounding as exciting and compose as the remainder of the album. Overall there are some common bonds that keep Symbolic tight as hell. The first one is the overall melodic guitar leads that are a common trait in every single song. The other one being the absolute balance between catchy and heavy even if it is in seperate parts of the song, an aspect hard to achieve especially in a genre such as Death Metal. To sum it up Symbolic is one of the best metal albums ever made and this one goes easily to Death.
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srfc
Ancient Mariner
Agreed.
karljant
Ancient Mariner
Next we have The Final Frontier... somehow disregarded by many while also overpraised by some. Already spoke about this one: although it's far from being top notch Maiden I really like the album and its lack of fillers, as well as the fact it adds a couple of top tier songs to Maiden's legacy. Aenima on the other hand was a substantial transformation for Maynard and company. Yes, Undertow's Alternative Metal is still the base where the record rests upon but the band brings lots of new structures, adornments to compose and broaden thir musical landscape. The opener Stinkfist (gross name but if you read the lyrics you'll understand the metaphor) was condemned to be a commercial success: it's catchy as catchy can be while featuring a ton of effects and experimental details like the band never dared to venture while making a kind of "radio hit" type song. Eulogy relies on two things: a strong ambiance build on the verses and a bombastic chorus to rev the whole song up. The first sparkles of prog rock influences can be found here and there on this tune but still in pretty small doses. H follows the same tone while dwelling into a darker mood and 46 & 2 reinforces this new found formula. Hooker With A Penis (another gross title but once again... just read the lyrics and you'll get the picture) is the perfect anthem dedicated to that annoying "hey man I only like the band's first demo the rest is sell out crap" type of guy. Honestly... this song's thematic is on point. As for the track itself, damn! I think these dudes never sounded this heavy and pissed: what a blast of a modern metal pounding. Jimmy kind of recovers the same somber atmosphere and structure H brought to the table while Pushit is the first song in this record where the band goes 50/50 on Alternative Metal and psychedelic 70's rock (although I pretty much prefer the remake on Salival). Aenema may be the best song here: a stunningly well built modern metal anthem with some truly remarkable sections (and recurring once again a scatological metaphor). To wrap things up Third Eye serves almost as the bridge of what the band's next album would be like: a lengthy tune where psychedelic and prog like traits are more emphasized, based upon a more complex structure with a multitude of details and stylistic and mood swings. To sum it up Aenima was one of the 90's most exciting and surprising rock albums, bringing these dudes to another level of exposure and acknowledgment. Personally I prefer Lateralus and Fear Inoculum with their overtly modern Psychedelic Prog style. However Aenima is still one hell of an album that marked an era so it's fair I give this one to Tool.
Finally we have once again Quorthon re-shaping almost on his own what extreme metal (black metal in this particular) would be. I've already stated this before but I'll say it once again. Listen to tracks such as Massacre, Call From The Grave, 13 Candles or Chariots Of Fire and you'll easily understand that 99,9999% of what Black Metal second wave bands were doing was merely ripping off this guy's work. So it's fairly easy to see how ahead of its time this record was and how much merit it deserves. Personally, and although absolutely giving all props to it it's my least favorite from that classic spree that starts with The Return and ends with Hammerheart. The only reason being is that it sounds the most similar to its previous record out of these four records. There are blatant similitudes between The Return and Under The Sign. The main trick here is the material is faster with a bit more edge. Furthermore one can already listen to some hints of what Blood Fire Death would be like in Enter The Eternal Fire. But then, as I stated before, we have a record I simply love and is often underrated. So Far So Good... So What is Mustaine at its best: angry, apocalyptic, sarcastic and with a strong political edge. Sound wise this transpires perfectly alongside stellar compositions. Only down is that Anarchy In The UK cover but hey, screw it. This record comes right after the stunning Rust In Peace in my rank and is a classic must have Thrash record I oftenly give it a spin and have a ball while doing so. Just an advice: stay away from the remastered version... it sounds poor when compared with the original. Nonetheless Megadeth gets this one.
Finally we have once again Quorthon re-shaping almost on his own what extreme metal (black metal in this particular) would be. I've already stated this before but I'll say it once again. Listen to tracks such as Massacre, Call From The Grave, 13 Candles or Chariots Of Fire and you'll easily understand that 99,9999% of what Black Metal second wave bands were doing was merely ripping off this guy's work. So it's fairly easy to see how ahead of its time this record was and how much merit it deserves. Personally, and although absolutely giving all props to it it's my least favorite from that classic spree that starts with The Return and ends with Hammerheart. The only reason being is that it sounds the most similar to its previous record out of these four records. There are blatant similitudes between The Return and Under The Sign. The main trick here is the material is faster with a bit more edge. Furthermore one can already listen to some hints of what Blood Fire Death would be like in Enter The Eternal Fire. But then, as I stated before, we have a record I simply love and is often underrated. So Far So Good... So What is Mustaine at its best: angry, apocalyptic, sarcastic and with a strong political edge. Sound wise this transpires perfectly alongside stellar compositions. Only down is that Anarchy In The UK cover but hey, screw it. This record comes right after the stunning Rust In Peace in my rank and is a classic must have Thrash record I oftenly give it a spin and have a ball while doing so. Just an advice: stay away from the remastered version... it sounds poor when compared with the original. Nonetheless Megadeth gets this one.
I'd say WASP is formative in hair metal, alongside, say, Twisted Sister. WASP is certainly more towards the heavy aspect of it. But you can be formative within a genre without being fully part of it. I would that of the hair-adjacent bands I like WASP the most, and this game has been what's opened my eyes to them.
JudasMyGuide
The resident reactionary recalcitrant
I admit that the genre itself is notoriously vague - I have always said that out of all the hair-adjacent (as you put it) bands I deeply love Extreme... but I've been told repeatedly on this forum that they are not of the genre at all.
(other than that I have a soft spot for Def Leppard, even Pyromania and Hysteria, though I take those as more or less a guilty pleasure)
(other than that I have a soft spot for Def Leppard, even Pyromania and Hysteria, though I take those as more or less a guilty pleasure)
karljant
Ancient Mariner
@JudasMyGuide Labeling WASP is hard. They had their own really odd, outrageous and provocative thing going on. I normally prefer calling them Heavy Metal but it surely varied within really heavy Hair Metal and sped up Heavy Metal but was an odd combination. And this works for both their visuals and sound. You had spandex, hair spray, eyeliners and tiger/ cheetah/ zebra shirts and pants going side by side with spikes, leather, blood, gore, skulls, razor blades and chains. Music wise you had some Motley Crue influenced tunes such as The Flame, LOVE Machine, Wild Child, Blind In Texas, Sex Drive and such alongside tracks that even resemble the Speed Metal of Exciter like Hellion, On Your Knees, I Wanna Be Somebody or Savage. Plus Blacky's raspy voice also gave a heavier edge to the band's material. And sure... the thing was openly shock rock prone, either involving horror or sex (or both) in doses never seen before.
Of course this is only applicable to their first three records: as I said before 1989 came and all the hair metal sounds and aesthetics alongside the gore and sex shenanigans fortunately went off the window. The band became way more serious, darker, the thematic approach changed drastically and this contributed largely to the great record that is The Headless Children. And if prior to this it was kind of hard to pin point WASP's genre, now they were easily described as an Heavy Metal band.
Of course this is only applicable to their first three records: as I said before 1989 came and all the hair metal sounds and aesthetics alongside the gore and sex shenanigans fortunately went off the window. The band became way more serious, darker, the thematic approach changed drastically and this contributed largely to the great record that is The Headless Children. And if prior to this it was kind of hard to pin point WASP's genre, now they were easily described as an Heavy Metal band.
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Diesel 11
As you scream into the web of silence...
As in Dio Rainbow or Rainbow as a whole? I’d be a little surprised if it’s the latter, but just because that’s not a very popular opinion to take, lol. Some of the post Dio songs are really good.
MrKnickerbocker
clap hands
I can definitely see why WASP is hair metal adjacent. I’d say the same of Skid Row and their first album is full blown hair metal.
Regardless of the sub genre, I just don’t really get much out of WASP’s music.
Regardless of the sub genre, I just don’t really get much out of WASP’s music.
JudasMyGuide
The resident reactionary recalcitrant
The former, although - controversial opinion as it may be - I think come back to Down to Earth much more often (Lost in Hollywood is such an underrated gem, IMHO).
srfc
Ancient Mariner
I didn't mean to sound cranky, but the reason I nit picked about W.A.S.P. is I have The Crimson Idol coming up, which is a bloody good album that I think people will enjoy if they approach it with open eyes. I certainly had all the same W.A.S.P. "they have a corny image and name and a silly well known song therefore they must be shit" without ever checking them out prejudices that are apparent from a lot of posts in this thread before I checked out the Crimson Idol on a whim, and I'm just trying to nip the hair metal talk in the bud before it comes up.
Early WASP is pretty much Kiss reinvented for the audience 10 years later, or Alice Cooper 15 years: pop hooks in heavy arrangements and a carefully contrived presentation designed to appear edgy or fascinating to 13-year-old boys.
Hair metal, maybe more so than any other metal subgenre, is about the packaging, more than music. Given the shallow emptiness of hair, it's easy to hate. I hated WASP back in the day, but not really for their music.
30 years later, if I close my eyes to the misogyny and the crushed beer cans, I hear some very catchy, concise energetic material in the best songs on W.A.S.P. If those songs came up on a playlist, you might catch me nodding my head along to the beat and maybe singing a few bars. After a few of them, I'd ask you to put on something else.
Hair metal, maybe more so than any other metal subgenre, is about the packaging, more than music. Given the shallow emptiness of hair, it's easy to hate. I hated WASP back in the day, but not really for their music.
30 years later, if I close my eyes to the misogyny and the crushed beer cans, I hear some very catchy, concise energetic material in the best songs on W.A.S.P. If those songs came up on a playlist, you might catch me nodding my head along to the beat and maybe singing a few bars. After a few of them, I'd ask you to put on something else.
karljant
Ancient Mariner
When it comes to visuals I'm pretty sure those are the top two influences. With some more leather and spikes alongside but yeah. Eveen the Shock Rock horror thing is entirely Alice Cooper prone but with much more depravity into it. And I concur... even a few years after it came out it was already too silly and dumb to be taken seriously even to Blacky himself. When it comes to misogyny and smashed beer cans sure: WASP was one of the most noticeable acts that reveled in those aesthetics (if not the most). But let's be honest... many of the more edgy bands back then had that same attitude. And a bit further into the late 80's/ early 90's it became even worst. A good example is Cannibal Corpse... they make WASP look like saints when it comes to those subjects.
JudasMyGuide
The resident reactionary recalcitrant
Hmm... Alice Cooper is one of my favourite artists ever, but I can't really stand Kiss or WASP. I wonder where I went wrong...
(though I admit my absolute favourite album is DaDa, so maybe we see the artist somehow differently... ?)
(though I admit my absolute favourite album is DaDa, so maybe we see the artist somehow differently... ?)
karljant
Ancient Mariner
I was talking about the visual aspect. But there are also some influences here and there musically (especially Kiss).
karljant
Ancient Mariner
Unlike their debut Slave To The Grind and Subhuman Race are far from being Hair Metal IMO.
JudasMyGuide
The resident reactionary recalcitrant
Might be, but I always thought that AC, kitschy as he may be, very often used the shock in a more specific, narrative, intellectual way than any of those other two bands. But maybe it's just wishful thinking, we all fight for our teams, right?
Diesel 11
As you scream into the web of silence...
Alice Cooper is better than both W.A.S.P. and Kiss, although the good stuff from W.A.S.P. often eclipses his material. The Headless Children and The Crimson Idol really showed that Blackie Lawless could push himself, and it's a shame that he never was able to progress beyond that. Kill.Fuck.Die. is just ridiculous. The album isn't even bad, but the way it's written and the way it was promoted is just regressing back to the schlock era, only going even further. What kind of tour are they doing? Mock rapes of nuns? Chainsaw decapitations of live pigs? Live pigs??? When Steve Harris got a divorce, he channeled that depression into the music and managed to come up with IMO an underrated piece of Iron Maiden history. When Lawless came out of bad relationships, he became a psycho.
And then when he came out of that hole, he just tried to rewrite The Crimson Idol and some of the other early albums again. Alice Cooper has never been the joke that Lawless has managed to turn himself into.
It's almost painful to see what kind of joke W.A.S.P. are. Obviously the debut isn't the greatest example of musical genius, but it is fun and the music is memorable and since I have a soft spot for hair metal anyway, I can enjoy it. But their progression to The Crimson Idol was incredible. Metal Archives actually has an average score for it about the 90% mark. "The Great Misconceptions of Me" is one of the most powerful songs ever written. And then they just fell off a cliff.
So yeah, I think Alice Cooper is better than W.A.S.P. for sure, and Kiss aren't even in the equation cuz they're just a silly group with fun but not usually very memorable songs. And also, Gene Simmons can, and I mean this from the bottom of my heart, go fuck himself.
And then when he came out of that hole, he just tried to rewrite The Crimson Idol and some of the other early albums again. Alice Cooper has never been the joke that Lawless has managed to turn himself into.
And also as far as religion goes, from what I've seen, Blackie just comes across as preachy, but whatever. Alice meanwhile is an ideal Christian for me. He went through some dark places and his faith helped him escape from that. Since then he's really become the nicest guy ever and I have huge respect for that. I know this has nothing to do with the music, but it does have to do with the imagery they give off.
It's almost painful to see what kind of joke W.A.S.P. are. Obviously the debut isn't the greatest example of musical genius, but it is fun and the music is memorable and since I have a soft spot for hair metal anyway, I can enjoy it. But their progression to The Crimson Idol was incredible. Metal Archives actually has an average score for it about the 90% mark. "The Great Misconceptions of Me" is one of the most powerful songs ever written. And then they just fell off a cliff.
So yeah, I think Alice Cooper is better than W.A.S.P. for sure, and Kiss aren't even in the equation cuz they're just a silly group with fun but not usually very memorable songs. And also, Gene Simmons can, and I mean this from the bottom of my heart, go fuck himself.
I'm talking about from a marketing perspective. Artistically, they might emphasize similar elements but there will still be tonal qualities that make or break or it for the individual. Given my general tastes and what they are on paper, I should like Dream Theatre, but they've never grabbed me.
For example, just see above.
And for the record, I think Cooper is comic book classy, Kiss is comic book brainless fun, and early WASP is comic book repulsive. So even if musically I don't see a huge difference, emotionally there is a ton.