dickinson1978
Ancient Mariner
I think simon plays as he was said to play.
DAWSON 1 YEAR ON
- Thread starter Kurt Barlow
- Start date
Vaenyr
Ancient Mariner
Since we like to harp on so much about mistakes, I was listening to the Dubai 2009 bootleg. On The Trooper, Steve fucks up the chord change, skips the C, plays D and the corrects himself again (timestamp right before the mistake). It's at 1:10-1:12 in case the timestamp doesn't work.
They really need a bassist who takes the material seriously and doesn't make such amateurish mistakes!
Just found it funny and had to share it.
They really need a bassist who takes the material seriously and doesn't make such amateurish mistakes!
Just found it funny and had to share it.
Vaenyr
Ancient Mariner
Funnily enough, listening to Wasted Years from that same concert, and Nicko goes from playing the chorus close to 160 bpm, slowing down considerably at every single fill, and then plays the next round of verses around 148 bpm (again fluctuating, he speeds up constantly, and slows down during fills).
But hey, let's crucify Simon for allegedly slowing down during fills. After all he's doing the exact same thing Nicko did all the time. How dare he.
But hey, let's crucify Simon for allegedly slowing down during fills. After all he's doing the exact same thing Nicko did all the time. How dare he.
Ascendingthethrone
Ancient Mariner
Personally, I would take these ‘fucks up’ over playing to clicks and backing tracks any day of the week.
Cat Milk Supreme
Ancient Mariner
Ok so theres technicality here and you're clearly paying close attention but the only time I personally ever noticed any drumming issue with Nicko was on the Future Past. That's one noticeable drumming issue over maybe 10 or 11 gigs since 96. I've seen them with Simon 4 times and and I've noticed dodgy drumming (clunky transitions, parts simplified to the songs detriment) each and every time.
Now, I'm not as pissed about this as some are, the 4 Simon gigs I've seen have been great experiences and Paris was one of the best I've ever seen but the issues are undeniable. And it's not just tempo. Generally I won't notice tempo changes unless they are extreme. Like Hallowed in Dublin last year. It shocked me how slow it felt. I honestly thought they were a busted flush right there and then. But I didn't notice it being slow at the other gigs. Anyway, tempo isn't my main issue, it's the changes, transitions, like after the slow bit in Rime, for example. It used to be bombastic. It no longer is, not to me. There's a lack of dynamics with Simon which I see as an indisputable fact. It just comes down to how many fucks each individual gives about it.
If any band member has told him to play that way it's only because they know he can't manage the tempo and flair of the original transitions together so they sided with tempo.
Yax
Ancient Mariner
There are several - small - fuckups from Nicko on the classic AMOLAD bootleg from Stockholm (though Steve is the one playing the least tight), just throwing it in there.
Vaenyr
Ancient Mariner
That's the thing though. I wasn't looking for any of those mistakes or issues. I was listening to the bootleg while working, having it on in the background. And once the chorus of Wasted Years was over and the next round of verses started I felt a large change in tempo, Nicko throttling the speed and the song suddenly losing its momentum. That made me go "wait a minute, what the hell was that?". And me being me meant the next step was to bust out the metronome before posting about it.
I believe you that you haven't noticed inconsistencies and problems with Nicko's drumming prior to TFP. That's not my experience though, I've noticed quite a few of those problems over the years. And I have no issue with people discussing these things. My problem is the hypocrisy of solely attacking Simon about things Nicko did as well.
Yax
Ancient Mariner
I wouldn't go as far as calling it hypocrisy. Simon is - naturally - under the spotlight regarding stuff like this. Whereas with Nicko, you'd just listen, think it's awesome and mostly forget about any mistakes you might've overheard (up until TFP tour of course), not thinking much of it.
Vaenyr
Ancient Mariner
I didn't mean Cat Milk with that. I never got the impression that he's acting or participating in bad faith. There are folks, particularly on the maiden subreddit, who I'd definitely call hypocrites though. Especially the popular talking point of solely blaming Simon for slow tempos while ignoring the well-documented fact that the tempos were slowed down during Nicko's tenure already. The speed of the songs has been a point of contention for Adrian for ages at this point. Yet some keep pretending this only started with Simon. That's what I take issue with.
Cat Milk Supreme
Ancient Mariner
Yeah I'm not suggesting that Nicko was utterly flawless but with my fairly non-analytical brain, I never noticed things. But I do with Simon.
AMOLAD was kinda different, there were several moments I noticed there, especially in transition but I don't really count that because it was mostly new songs and sometimes complicated ones at that. Everyone got a by ball from me on that tour.
AMOLAD was kinda different, there were several moments I noticed there, especially in transition but I don't really count that because it was mostly new songs and sometimes complicated ones at that. Everyone got a by ball from me on that tour.
2M2M
Educated Fool
My reservations with Simon's drumming is not so much the tempo. As others have stated, the tempos are being directly by other members of the band - most likely Adrian and maybe some input from Bruce & Steve - but I don't think this is on all songs either. What I find a little bit underwhelming (and I do just mean a little bit) - is more the dynamics and 'personality' of Simon's playing - Nicko's playing (while tempos varied for sure) was explosive and had a 'fun' feel to it. It was exciting. And in regards to tempos - sometimes songs do need to breathe, speed up and slow down.
Nicko's also had 42 years of playing with Steve & the boys, intrinsically knows the songs and we've become accustomed to hearing his 'kit' as well.
The differences for Simon are that his playing is more steady (although yes tempos do vary, sometimes not where they should) and his playing feels a little bit less bombastic (a term someone else used above which describes Nicko's playing to a T) - and sonically his kit is tuned a lot lower, incl. the snare - Maiden do sound better with a tighter poppier snare tbh.
I'll also agree that there are some sections of certain songs where the timing feels a bit off - the band doesn't quite sound in time. But I don't think that can be blamed on Simon specifically
.
I'll be seeing them live in about 6 weeks time and I am still so excited by the thought of hearing some of these songs for the first time (Maiden don't visit my country that often) that I certainly haven't really given any thought to worrying about Simon's playing. The last few clips I've seen on youtube with the intro fill to Murders - Simon's nailed it. I'm looking forward to the show
Nicko's also had 42 years of playing with Steve & the boys, intrinsically knows the songs and we've become accustomed to hearing his 'kit' as well.
The differences for Simon are that his playing is more steady (although yes tempos do vary, sometimes not where they should) and his playing feels a little bit less bombastic (a term someone else used above which describes Nicko's playing to a T) - and sonically his kit is tuned a lot lower, incl. the snare - Maiden do sound better with a tighter poppier snare tbh.
I'll also agree that there are some sections of certain songs where the timing feels a bit off - the band doesn't quite sound in time. But I don't think that can be blamed on Simon specifically
.
I'll be seeing them live in about 6 weeks time and I am still so excited by the thought of hearing some of these songs for the first time (Maiden don't visit my country that often) that I certainly haven't really given any thought to worrying about Simon's playing. The last few clips I've seen on youtube with the intro fill to Murders - Simon's nailed it. I'm looking forward to the show
Cat Milk Supreme
Ancient Mariner
This is the crux of it, for me. Seeing them live is still fantastic. I've got Lima in a few weeks and it's gonna be delicious.
matic22
Ancient Mariner
I've just fallen into a pit of watching Stewart Copeland drumming videos and I think I know what the main difference is between Nicko and Simon. It's the in-between bits. Copeland is a master of those, maybe the best ever to do it (even if sometimes the song structure suffers a bit because of that and/or just to say FUCK YOU CUNT to Sting). Nicko was also great at them. I think Simon didn't grow up on jazz-inspired rock drummers like Mitch Mitchell, but the likes of Stew and Nick did. And this is the main reason why he struggles quite a bit on songs with lots of those little things and fills, while he does great on some songs like Rime. Also, to be able to do those fills and not satchurate the sound of the band, you need higher tuned drums. Especially the snare.
(and when you listen a bit to Copeland, you realize that he is a nightmare for a songwriter, but one of most fun-to watch drummers ever)
(and when you listen a bit to Copeland, you realize that he is a nightmare for a songwriter, but one of most fun-to watch drummers ever)
2M2M
Educated Fool
Copland would be an interesting fit for Maiden... I can see it
2M2M
Educated Fool
The South America shows will be awesome, no doubt about it.
I haven't see them play any of the following live:
- Rime
- Seventh Son
- Murders
- Killers
- Phantom
- Aces High
- 2 Minutes
- Infinite Dreams
I mean... I'd go and see them if Simon was on a cajon, just to see that setlist - let alone the other tracks (which I have seen but of course am still excited to see/hear)
matic22
Ancient Mariner
Wouldn't fit, because he doesn't play the songs the same way twice and is too much improvisation oriented.
2M2M
Educated Fool
fair enough - maybe 1 show only!
Hangdalar13
A Maiden-hungry Hungarian
Adrian is a perfectionist. Like every musician should be. That's why he is rarely satisfied. Just like me. Doesn't matter how many people comes to me after a show and tells me how much they enjoyed it, I will be "angry" because I did a mistake in this and this song. I guess Adrian is like me. Or more like I'm like Adrian. But that doesn't mean we don't enjoy playing. We just want to do the best we can. That's why we give those death stares to the other members if they fuck up
Hangdalar13
A Maiden-hungry Hungarian
Exactly. Some shows in the nineties were absolute trainwrecks. Tempos going all over the place, guitarists, especially Janick, but sometimes Dave too fucking up the solos or whole songs, and so on. That was very prominent on the last tour with Bruce. They sounded like they doesn't give a shit. When Adrian returned, everything got better. The tempos are more steady since then, and the guys playing near perfection.
dickinson1978
Ancient Mariner
Yes during 90s they were raw and fast. I think the 3 guitar made them to sound more like the albums.