UK Politics

Are you aware of the benefits the UK has from the EU? Is it just removing a layer, is that it? No more impact?
I think the Greeks are not seeing the benefits of EU membership right now. And youth unemployment in the Eurozone is not that good. That said, one of these so-called benefits are regeneration of some areas but it is exactly this that caused a town in Wales to vote out. Why? Well, EU money gave them a nice silver dragon statue in the town centre whilst the local council closed community centres/libraries due to lack of funding. What should that money be spent on?
 
Town/Parish council
Local/Borough council
County coucil
(in some areas) Assemblies/National parliament
Westminster MP's
EU MEP's
European commission.
That is a lot of government. Here, I have:
City/town/county government.
Provincial government.
Federal government.

Now, that being said, the UK itself is an group of nations already working together in a common group, so some extra government does seem necessary.

For one, the 3rd largest contributor (as of 2014) to the EU financially just left, which leaves budget holes to plug
The EU will make a lot of this money up on tariffs on British goods, or on access fees for the UK to access the common market. Either the governmental burden will remain the same, or the cost of Brexit to the EU will be passed on to British businesses, which is one of the reasons that the UK is now frantically asking for free trade agreements with Canada and the USA. It's hard to say how much, because the amount of business the UK does with Europe is already starting to decline as many businesses (including some that were originally British) are starting to relocate to Europe.

I think the Greeks are not seeing the benefits of EU membership right now.
The EU should never have added Greece in the first place, as they literally lie through their teeth about how much money they actually spend as a country on the things they spend it on. And while Greece may have experienced a major crisis partially as a result of European investment, they will likely be in a much stronger place than ever once the crisis finally peters out - because this was a government that required a combination of some austerity, and some much smarter investments. And because the EU will have learned a lesson on what to do with this level of government debt - a level that many other European nations are flirting with.

And I'm not sure they will actually reform.
However they reform, it won't be to help small towns in Wales now, that's for sure. And if they reform and become a far more acceptable and prosperous union, the UK will slip further into irrelevance.
 
I'm still not reading any concrete reasoning behind a Leave vote here.
According to a poll (see earlier for treating this with scepticism) the driving force behind people wanting to leave was democracy (see image) no immigration.
And yet now we're leaving the EU despite only 37% of the British electorate voting the leave. In Scotland ~26% of the electorate voted to leave. Is this democracy in action?

I honestly think you're kidding yourself if you think that the majority of leave voters didn't vote on immigration or "sticking two fingers up to the establishment" (for this read: the stupid vote). The control, leaving the EU will supposedly deliver, is illusionary & our own elected politicians won't use this to deliver what people (apparently) want anyway.

E.g. immigration isn't going to fall. We already have a good example of what controlled immigration looks like. It's 150,000 (or whatever the figure is) non-EU nationals per year. We need these people, so this isn't going to change. People in Boston (UK) are still going to be bumping their gums at all the foreigners living here.

Literally every single person that is interviewed on TV that voted leave trots out this same old shit about their country not feeling like England any more; about foreigners taking our jobs; about children & grandchildren going to Schools where nobody speaks English; about our borders; about taking back control; about them and us; and qualifying that they're not racists, and then promptly sounding like a racist. Is this not representative? Is this selective journalistic reporting? BBC/media bias? Where are all the normal Leave voters? I don't see/hear many of them.

When I watch the television and I listen to what English people on the streets are saying, this is not a country I recognise or want to be a part of. Leaving the EU will not make this country any more democratic. Leaving the EU will not reduce immigration. And everything else that has been cited has nothing whatsoever to do with the EU & isn't worth discussing in this context.
This was a vote for old Britain; a vote for the uneducated; a vote for xenophobia & prejudice; a vote for foreigner-mistrusters & for migrant-haters; a vote for bigots, and for racists; a vote for the narrow-minded & the inward-looking; a vote for the misinformed, and the selfish; a vote against "The Establishment" & a vote for mistrust; a negative vote against everything & for very little; a vote for years of financial uncertainty; a vote for UK constitutional chaos; a vote for English "independence". A vote for Little England.
Sorry, but this still applies. This is the company your in.
 
I would not count that much on tariffs to fully make up for that ... while I am sure the EU wants high tariffs on exports from the UK, they do not want the same rates on goods they import into the UK. I do not think they will have problems with a trade agreement with the US, Obama already backed off his stupid "the UK will move to the back of the queue" red line-like statement ... and whoever the next President is will not go "back of the queue" either
 
while I am sure the EU wants high tariffs on exports from the UK, they do not want the same rates on goods they import into the UK.
Yes, true. And that's why I think the second option - be access fees to gain access to the common marketplace - is more likely. Which are likely to be similar to the price that they pay to the EU today. That way the UK gov't is paying, not the producers.
 
I except a lot of pettiness from the EU ... but over the course of time ideally some clearer heads will prevail and they will not act like a jilted lover .. as they are now (except Merkel who has made some very reasonable statements)
 
And yet now we're leaving the EU despite only 37% of the British electorate voting the leave. In Scotland ~26% of the electorate voted to leave. Is this democracy in action?
And that is what we could perceive as the problem. Democracy dictates (everywhere, mind, not just in the UK) that when 50%+1 of the votes say one thing, the rest have to live with it. I don't like that, never have, but it's how it is. We could have possibly gone down the road of >70% of the vote forcing change, but that was not what was on offer.

E.g. immigration isn't going to fall. We already have a good example of what controlled immigration looks like. It's 150,000 (or whatever the figure is) non-EU nationals per year. We need these people, so this isn't going to change. People in Boston (UK) are still going to be bumping their gums at all the foreigners living here.
Understand that, and yes the people that do seem to be aggrieved live in places where immigration is not actually a "problem". From my point of view I don't care who comes in or out as I really do not see immigration as a problem at all.

But all in all, I've not seen or heard anything concrete to ask me to stay in. I have become extremely wary of Govt's over the last decade or so and the bigger they get the more I tend to go against them. And when the EU produces regulations solely on the sell of "hazelnuts in a shell" and the document goes to 7 pages, something is wrong: http://eur-lex.europa.eu/LexUriServ/LexUriServ.do?uri=OJ:L:2002:187:0014:0020:EN:PDF

But not everyone that sees the EU as undemocratic could be considered uneducated, bigoted, etc. Tony Benn, for example, said of the EU:

"When I saw how the European Union was developing, it was very obvious what they had in mind was not democratic. In Britain, you vote for a government so the government has to listen to you, and if you don't like it you can change it."

That is a lot of government. Here, I have:
City/town/county government.
Provincial government.
Federal government.

Now, that being said, the UK itself is an group of nations already working together in a common group, so some extra government does seem necessary.
I forgot the House of Lords as well.
 
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Democracy dictates (everywhere, mind, not just in the UK) that when 50%+1 of the votes say one thing, the rest have to live with it.
That's not necessarily true. The majority can't rule in our system in certain human rights issues, for example. I'm not saying that the EU is a right - indeed, I think national self-determination is a right, the opposite opinion - and I respect that for whatever reasons (many of them quite poor) Leave won. Just a reminder that the majority does not rule in every case.
 
And that is what we could perceive as the problem. Democracy dictates (everywhere, mind, not just in the UK) that when 50%+1 of the votes say one thing, the rest have to live with it. I don't like that, never have, but it's how it is. We could have possibly gone down the road of >70% of the vote forcing change, but that was not what was on offer.
I totally agree there should be higher thresholds; especially considering that turnout is never the full electorate. You've pretty much answered your own point though. Nobody forced us to run the referendum this way.
But all in all, I've not seen or heard anything concrete to ask me to stay in.
That's a pretty unconventional way of viewing a vote for the status quo vs. change.
I have become extremely wary of Govt's over the last decade or so and the bigger they get the more I tend to go against them. And when the EU produces regulations solely on the sell of "hazelnuts in a shell" and the document goes to 7 pages, something is wrong: http://eur-lex.europa.eu/LexUriServ/LexUriServ.do?uri=OJ:L:2002:187:0014:0020:EN:PDF
You can think this way about anything. Sure, question why it needs to be seven pages; but I don't have any issue with why it exists. Again, you'll still have all this shit once we leave.
But not everyone that sees the EU as undemocratic could be considered uneducated, bigoted, etc.
I'm not calling Tony Benn or you a bigot. There were other choices in that list I made! ;)
"When I saw how the European Union was developing, it was very obvious what they had in mind was not democratic. In Britain, you vote for a government so the government has to listen to you, and if you don't like it you can change it."
Pity, in practise, that doesn't really happen.
Good point. Human rights issues should come first.
Yeh, but what version of "human rights". Plenty of Conservatives/Leavers seem to want to scrap adhering to the convention. I have no faith in what would replace this.
 
The human rights we currently have serves well and don't need changing. The Tories will do well to remember that. But if they foolishly put the very evil Teresa May in as leader (and as such, PM), she may well try to change it.
 
The British political establishment is today in utter turmoil, the Conservatives don't seem to know what to do with themselves, the Chancellor may as well be a missing person and Her Majesty's Opposition have descended into a maelstrom of infighting.

This shows the arrogance of the elite, who never once conceived that the people would actually vote against their wishes.

I voted Leave and I did so proudly, I have no time whatsoever for the many people on social media outlets who have insulted me for my decision, but I never once trusted Boris, Gove and the Conservative party - I believe that they will conspire to keep us in the EEA and go against the will of the people.
 
Well, first things first - the situation is a genuine clusterfuck indeed. I'm sorry to see the results and I'm sorry that UK has been in such a turmoil the past few days.

I'll admit there are arguments for leaving that make sense to me. For example, both Barroso and Junckler after him are either very bad people, or they have really bad PR, because so far they seem to me (and to many people around me) as if drunk with power or whatever. States speak against the integration? The response - there will be even more integration and you're going to like that or there's the door. That's NOT the European Union as it was intended and that's one of the main reasons people in my country have been talking about leaving EU as well (a complete failure to handle the immigration crisis in any way is a close second). Keep in mind that the EU is an organisation created by states of Europe for the states of Europe. If the states voice their discontent, the EU should care. They don't, it seems. I understand the voters not wanting to have anything to do with that and voting for leave, screw the consequences.

Let me stress that I would vote remain, okay? But I can see how an intelligent person could vote for leave (and not only bigots and idiots).

I also don't like some of the remain rhethorics - being in EU means participating in an international treaty, however nobody can force you to stay there. You don't have to be in the European Union! It definitely isn't your obligation or your duty. You'll probably survive anyway! Honestly, it's not the end of the world. It's just an international organisation, in the end. The people have decided they don't want to participate in that and they're entitled to do so. You should not be blackmailed to stay within an organisation that has moved very far from its roots. By the way, the "woman scorned" is mostly Germany and France anyway. I doubt any of the V4 states is going to be angry with UK for leaving, for example.

I hope this will be the final jolt that brings the reform of the EU that's very sorely needed, otherwise there's going to be some dark years in the near future for all of us, IMHO.

However, I'm also concerned about my own little country - let's admit it, even if it's now breaking from within (or at least it seems so), the UK will prevail. They'll manage and they have the resources and the footing and the whatever to survive even outside of the EU. However, the decision was observed by people in my country... We as a nation (I mean citizens now, not our politicians) have been very eurosceptic ever since the few years after our entry. And UK leaving might make Czechs realise they could leave too ... but being a third tier nation, we have pretty much nowhere else to go, apart from jumping in bed with Russia again (let's see how well that one worked out). That's what I'm afraid of. People in general are always stupid.

Also - people, or the general public, or the cizitens of UK have decided they don't want to stay in the EU. Whatever the reasons were, the heads of EU should now take that as a feedback of sorts and act accordingly. If they fail to do so - and so far it seems it's going to be the case indeed - there's something even more wrong with the EU than I expected.

I would vote remain, but to have another referendum right after just isn't right. You cannot vote again and again until you reach a result you'd like. That's democracy trampled over.

(Let me stress that I'm talking from a viewpoint of a person not living in the UK - I don't have the slightest idea about the social and political nuances - I'm only talking about the fact that a state has left the EU. I'm sorry if I don't make many sense, though.)
 
Well, first things first - the situation is a genuine clusterfuck indeed. I'm sorry to see the results and I'm sorry that UK has been in such a turmoil the past few days.

I'll admit there are arguments for leaving that make sense to me. For example, both Barroso and Junckler after him are either very bad people, or they have really bad PR, because so far they seem to me (and to many people around me) as if drunk with power or whatever. States speak against the integration? The response - there will be even more integration and you're going to like that or there's the door. That's NOT the European Union as it was intended and that's one of the main reasons people in my country have been talking about leaving EU as well (a complete failure to handle the immigration crisis in any way is a close second). Keep in mind that the EU is an organisation created by states of Europe for the states of Europe. If the states voice their discontent, the EU should care. They don't, it seems. I understand the voters not wanting to have anything to do with that and voting for leave, screw the consequences.

Let me stress that I would vote remain, okay? But I can see how an intelligent person could vote for leave (and not only bigots and idiots).

I also don't like some of the remain rhethorics - being in EU means participating in an international treaty, however nobody can force you to stay there. You don't have to be in the European Union! It definitely isn't your obligation or your duty. You'll probably survive anyway! Honestly, it's not the end of the world. It's just an international organisation, in the end. The people have decided they don't want to participate in that and they're entitled to do so. You should not be blackmailed to stay within an organisation that has moved very far from its roots. By the way, the "woman scorned" is mostly Germany and France anyway. I doubt any of the V4 states is going to be angry with UK for leaving, for example.

I hope this will be the final jolt that brings the reform of the EU that's very sorely needed, otherwise there's going to be some dark years in the near future for all of us, IMHO.

However, I'm also concerned about my own little country - let's admit it, even if it's now breaking from within (or at least it seems so), the UK will prevail. They'll manage and they have the resources and the footing and the whatever to survive even outside of the EU. However, the decision was observed by people in my country... We as a nation (I mean citizens now, not our politicians) have been very eurosceptic ever since the few years after our entry. And UK leaving might make Czechs realise they could leave too ... but being a third tier nation, we have pretty much nowhere else to go, apart from jumping in bed with Russia again (let's see how well that one worked out). That's what I'm afraid of. People in general are always stupid.

Also - people, or the general public, or the cizitens of UK have decided they don't want to stay in the EU. Whatever the reasons were, the heads of EU should now take that as a feedback of sorts and act accordingly. If they fail to do so - and so far it seems it's going to be the case indeed - there's something even more wrong with the EU than I expected.

I would vote remain, but to have another referendum right after just isn't right. You cannot vote again and again until you reach a result you'd like. That's democracy trampled over.

(Let me stress that I'm talking from a viewpoint of a person not living in the UK - I don't have the slightest idea about the social and political nuances - I'm only talking about the fact that a state has left the EU. I'm sorry if I don't make many sense, though.)
You're posts are becoming so epic.
 
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