And the Middle East has exploded once more

IronDuke

Ancient Mariner
Anyone care to offer any commentary on the current situation in the Middle East?

As of right now, Israel has warned Lebenese civillians to avoid areas where Hezbollah is known to be, lest they be drawn into the line of fire.

The rumours have it on CNN and CBCNW that the three Israeli kids who were kidnapped are being taken to Iran.
 
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Anonymous

Guest
As a New Yorker, I've seen first hand the act of terrorism. As a Jew, I know what its like to be a "stranger in a strange land" so to speak and be an outcast. What I admire about Israel is they don't play politics. They play for survival. They aren't trying to appeal to the world or do the right thing, they are trying to survive. I mean, it sucks that civilians have to die, but thats what happens when the enemy is mixed with the people and thats what happens in war.  I agree that Hezbollah made an act of war by what they did and israel shouldnt be diplomatic. We weren't diplomatic when 3000 Americans were killed on 9/11
 

Raven

Ancient Mariner
hanginglimbs said:
As a New Yorker, I've seen first hand the act of terrorism. As a Jew, I know what its like to be a "stranger in a strange land" so to speak and be an outcast. What I admire about Israel is they don't play politics. They play for survival. They aren't trying to appeal to the world or do the right thing, they are trying to survive. I mean, it sucks that civilians have to die, but thats what happens when the enemy is mixed with the people and thats what happens in war.  I agree that Hezbollah made an act of war by what they did and israel shouldnt be diplomatic. We weren't diplomatic when 3000 Americans were killed on 9/11

The trouble with Israel's 'take no shit' policy is that it does nothing to promote peace there.  More innocent non-Israelis die in every conflict than Israelis, due to Israel's powerful military strength.  The countries surrounding Israel will never want to live in peace with the Jews (not after the War of Independance) while the conflicts continue, and the vicious circle will continue.  Palestinians will refuse to accept Israel's right as a nation, full stop.  Israel will not let up on the war on terror while suicide bombers are endangering their citizens.  While I do agree with Israel's determination not to submit to terrorism, I believe that the situation is not going to be solved anytime soon unless the Palestinians accept that the so-called 'state of Palestine' cannot come to be.  And is that likely to happen? :(
 

Onhell

Infinite Dreamer
hanginglimbs said:
As a New Yorker, I've seen first hand the act of terrorism. As a Jew, I know what its like to be a "stranger in a strange land" so to speak and be an outcast.

Isn't New York the State with the largest population of Jews in the U.S and second only to Israel in the world?
 

Yax

Ancient Mariner
Onhell said:
Isn't New York the State with the largest population of Jews in the U.S and second only to Israel in the world?

True. If I remember correctly, there are about the same number of Jews in U.S.A. as in Israel. If you meant in percent, then I can say that your statement is also correct.
 
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Anonymous

Guest
I think most of the Muslims will form an alliance against Israel. The "main" country will be Iran and because Israel is allied with the USA, Bush will say "We have to help our allie". Then allies of the USA will help them and we will get WWIII or the start from it. I know it's sounds big, but that's what started WWI and WWII. In my opinion, Cold War isn't a World War because it was only 2 main country and they didn't fight eachother directly.
 

Yax

Ancient Mariner
Max_power said:
In my opinion, Cold War isn't a World War because it was only 2 main country and they didn't fight eachother directly.
No and I havn't ever heard, read or seen anything that states that is was a world war. So forgive me, that statement seems quite unnecessary.
 

Onhell

Infinite Dreamer
Max_power said:
I think most of the Muslims will form an alliance against Israel. The "main" country will be Iran and because Israel is allied with the USA, Bush will say "We have to help our allie". Then allies of the USA will help them and we will get WWIII or the start from it. I know it's sounds big, but that's what started WWI and WWII.

What started WWI was a murder, what started WWII was an invasion... not a group of nations united by cultural and religious background that want to gang up on another nation which they refuse to acknowledge.
 
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Anonymous

Guest
Like Israel -- and a few other nations -- the Duke is a really good shit-stirrer...
 

Yax

Ancient Mariner
Onhell said:
What started WWI was a murder, what started WWII was an invasion... not a group of nations united by cultural and religious background that want to gang up on another nation which they refuse to acknowledge.

The murder of Austria's Archduke Franz Ferdinand was the reason for the first world war. He was murdererd by Gavrilo Princip along with six other people and a Major named Tankosic. The duke was assasinated with a gun if I remember correctly...Two gunshots wee fired. The first did hit the duke's wife Sophie von Chotek and the second the duke's neck. They both died before recieving any real medical attention. (I'm sorry I didn't question Max_power's other wrong statements in my previous post, but I'm rather tired).

Now, my question is, I've been told that Conrad von Hötzendorf was involved in the assasination. Was he indeed involved, and if that's the case, is it known if the conspiracy was supported from even higher official positions?
 
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Anonymous

Guest
Yax said:
No and I havn't ever heard, read or seen anything that states that is was a world war. So forgive me, that statement seems quite unnecessary.

I've seen a book in a library where it was saying that WWIII was the Cold War. I don't know if any other books call it like that.

Onhell said:
What started WWI was a murder, what started WWII was an invasion... not a group of nations united by cultural and religious background that want to gang up on another nation which they refuse to acknowledge.

What "build" WWI was the nationalism of most of the Europe country and the murder just started the fights. And for WWII, it was Germany when they decided to exterminate the Jew population in Poland (where most of them were during that time) that brought up the invasion. The invasion started the fights. It's not a "small" event that starts war, but what's happening before that event.
 

IronDuke

Ancient Mariner
Max_power said:
I've seen a book in a library where it was saying that WWIII was the Cold War. I don't know if any other books call it like that.

What "build" WWI was the nationalism of most of the Europe country and the murder just started the fights. And for WWII, it was Germany when they decided to exterminate the Jew population in Poland (where most of them were during that time) that brought up the invasion. The invasion started the fights. It's not a "small" event that starts war, but what's happening before that event.

I really don't know where to being correcting your sophmoric understanding of history and the English language.
Here're a few general tips:
  • Being in a book (even a hard cover one!) doesn't necessarialy make something a fact. Most books are actually pure unadulterated bullshit (i.e. fiction)
  • "Build" is the inifinitive of the verb meaning "To form by combining materials or parts." Since the First World War is in the past, we like to used the simple past tense - "Built" (I know most verbs in the simple past end with a D, but build is irregular. I can see how that might be confusing for a learner.) Furthermore, wars are not ""built" or "build" anyway. You might've chosen "began," "precipitated," or even "sparked."
  • You are using "Europe" to describe the subject of the sentence (country) , ergo you need to use the adjective form - European
  • There is more than one country in Europe. Pluralize, my friend! Countries! (Admittedly, in 1914 there were far fewer countries in Europe than today, but I think the war would've been difficult without any enemies.
  • Germany did not invade Poland expressly to kill the Jews. They invaded to expand the Reich. This necessitated killing the Jews there, as well as the Poles and numerous other Slavic peoples. Nobody believed the scale of the atrocities at the time, and only in the lat 1940's during the Nuremburg trils did it become known to the world exactly what the madmen had done. Britain and France declared war on Germany for violating the neutrality of Poland, not for crimes against humanity.
  • As for your assertion that it isn't "small events" which precipitated conflicts, I have to disagree. History is nothing more than a sequence of small events, the culmination of which is what we call the present.
 

Raven

Ancient Mariner
  • IronDuke said:
    • As for your assertion that it isn't "small events" which precipitated conflicts, I have to disagree. History is nothing more than a sequence of small events, the culmination of which is what we call the present.

Hitler narrowly escaped death in a German trench while serving during the First World War because of a dog he owned.  Now that's a small event leading to a bigger one!

A good synopsis of the German motives for the invasion of Poland, although from my study of the period I was led to believe that Hitler wished to subjugate the Slavs and Poles, while extermination was the fate he decreed for the Jews of enslaved countries.
 
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Anonymous

Guest
EDENBEAST, that post earned you a serious kicking. Unfortunately, at the moment there are no forum rules against posting propaganda, but if there were, you'd be toast now.

YES, what is happening to the Lebanese people is great injustice.
YES, there are many innocent people in Lebanon suffering and dying.
YES, it is wrong to just sit there and watch while innocent people who were never participating in any kind of agression are being attacked.

BUT, the very same is happening to thousands of people in Israel. The Hezbollah is firing missiles at random into Israeli cities killing countless people and making thousands flee from their homes. Where are they in your propaganda clips? Why should we feel compassion only for the Lebanese but not for the Israeli? It is always the innocents who are suffering, no matter whether their flag has a ceder or the star of David on it.
 
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Anonymous

Guest
Ignoring the problem is much better I think.  In saying that, good reply Per ;)
 

Edenbeast

Trooper
Propaganda?!!

I'm only posting what I have found regarding the lebanese casualties and thats it, and if I have offended someone or violated any rules I apologise.

cheers
 

IronDuke

Ancient Mariner
While that is indeed what you did, Edenbeast, I think Perun objected to the fact that your choice of links were, not to put too fine a point on it, a bit one-sided. Perhaps nothing comparable exists online to show how the Israelis are suffering, in which case I can understand what you did.
That people's emotions can be so volitile (mine, yours, and Perun's) is proof of just how much of a hot-button issue this is with many people. I don't think Per meant any offence, and I don't think you did either. Things just get taken the wrong way some time. I accept your apology and offer one to you myself.
 
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Anonymous

Guest
Right, so I've got a little time to kill*, and I decided to revive this thread and give my full opinion (or lack thereof, as you will see).

First of all, I am rather pleased to see that both sides appear to have agreed on a ceasefire. That is a step in the right direction.
Now, I do not stand on anybody's side here. The reason is very simple. The Hezbollah is firing rockets into Israeli cities, killing hundreds of innocent people and driving them out of their homes. They inflict pain and fear in all of Israel's population, just like the suicide bombers of the Hamas or Islamic Jihad do. They are, by all rights, called terrorists. Terrorists cause terror, and that's what the Hezbollah is doing.
Israel is defending itself. It feels threatened in its existence, because it is surrounded by countries and people who think the Israeli state should be destroyed and its people should be driven to the sea. I do not claim that every single person living around Israel thinks so. After all, there are formal and effective peace treaties with Egypt and Jordan. Many people in countries like Syria or Iran could probably not care less for Israel. However, there are also many enemies all around, and many of them carry weapons, be it a belt with dynamite, be it a katyusha, be it a bomber plane. Israel feels threatened and feels it must defend itself.
I believe that Israels actions against Lebanon are thus understandable, because the Hezbollah (mis)uses the country's infrastructure for its own causes. Granted, the infrastructure is also used by innocent people. I do believe that Israel is going the wrong way about it, but what the leaders and most of the people probably feel that it's either to shoot or be shot. The Israelis don't want to be victims ever again.
I don't have a solution. I don't stand on anybody's side. Except maybe on that of the innocent who suffer, no matter whether they're Israeli or Lebanese.
Will a UN corps bring peace? I doubt it.

Damn, that was shallow.


*I am at work right now. My job at the moment is to convert an Excel spreadsheet of 14720 pages into a pdf file. It is done automatically, but page by page, so basically, all I can do is sit by and watch that nothing goes wrong. What makes it even worse is that it goes through all 14720 pages twice, once to convert them and once to tag them individually (at least that's the current standing, I wouldn't be too surprised if something else happened afterwards). Just to make sure nobody goes around saying I have too much time on my hands.
 
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