What if Adrian had joined Def Leppard?

[CriedWhenBrucieLeft]

I'd agree with most of that, nibblet. I've personally never heard anyone outside this forum talk about Dio.

Guys, Dio wasn't that big in the UK.

 

[DJ James]

what if adrian joined iron maiden

 

[SinisterMinisterX]

I can't see how those first 3 Dio albums could be described as 'huge'. Dio were more popular in America than in other markets but their first three albums all charted lower and sold sell than the 3 Maiden albums released in the same years in America. And Dio were certainly very tiny compared to Maiden outside of the USA.

And Dio certainly didn't have any 'hit' singles - their airplay success was even less than Maiden from the same era.

Dio was huge. They did have hits and airplay; "The Last In Line" in particular was a huge hit.

Your dismissal of Whitesnake is also unfair. The one track Viv Campbell played on, "Here I Go Again" was one of the biggest hits of 1987 and still gets airplay to this day on classic rock stations. The tour he was on was a slot opening for the Crue at the height of the Crue's fame. He was far from low-profile.

 

[CriedWhenBrucieLeft]

Dio was huge. They did have hits and airplay; "The Last In Line" in particular was a huge hit.

Did you bother to read what he said about the UK, SMX? Dio was not "huge" in the UK.

 

[Perun]

It's not only about the UK, though.

 

[SinisterMinisterX]

That's a small point. Dio was huge in the world's largest music market, where Def Leppard was also huge. In the big picture, Vivian Campbell was very well known, liked and respected by more people than Adrian Smith in the 80s. The UK may have been a lesser part of that, but it's still true.

 

[nibblet]

From someone who was around at the time: your impression is correct.

But the facts clearly suggest otherwise!

'Rainbow In The Dark' was Dio's biggest airplay hit but managed only to reach number 14 on the US Mainstream Rock Charts in 1983. 'Flight Of The Icarus' charted higher in the same year. Dio's album, 'Holy Diver' peaked at number 56 on the US Billboard Chart in 1983 compared to 'Peace Of Mind' which charted at number 14 in the same year and Top Ten across Europe, where 'Holy Diver' rarely charted.

You seem to be determined to champion Vivian Campbell, and fair enough - he seems a great guy and is a brilliant guitarist. But any notion that he was 'way more successful and popular' than Adrian Smith in the 80s just does not stand up to scrutiny. Vivian did not play on any major hit album throughout the 80s (Last In Line by Dio was his highest charting album and that did not make the Top 20 in America). In contrast, Adrian played on a string Maiden albums that were Top 20 and platinum certified in America and charting worldwide.

 

[SinisterMinisterX]

Yes, but Iron Maiden was a monolithic entity to most music listeners. No one besides metalheads knew who Adrian Smith was. Vivian Campbell routinely shared magazine covers with RJD and did just as many interviews. Charts don't tell the whole story of fame. People knew who played guitar in Dio, and most people didn't know that about Maiden. People could recognize Vivian Campbell without being a Dio fan. Not true for H.

 

[nibblet]

That's a small point. Dio was huge in the world's largest music market, where Def Leppard was also huge. In the big picture, Vivian Campbell was very well known, liked and respected by more people than Adrian Smith in the 80s. The UK may have been a lesser part of that, but it's still true.

To suggest that Dio was huge in the world's largest market is not backed up by facts.

The 3 Dio albums that featured Vivain Cambell charted as follows in America:-

'Holy Diver' in 1983 = 56
'Last In Line in 1984 = 24
'Sacred Heart' in 1985 = 29

In contrast, here are Maiden's chart position for their 3 studio albums of the same era in America:-

'Piece Of Mind' in 1983 = 14
'Powerslave in 1984 = 21 (for 3 weeks)
'SIT' in 1984 = 11

Really, you can love Vivian as much as you wish...but facts are facts. You are wrong in your claims that Dio were huge in America, compared to Maiden. And you are wrong in your claims that they had more mainstream hit singles than Maiden.

 

[Perun]

Chart positions are deceptive. Maiden singles and albums notoriously sell well upon their release, which explains their high chart positions, but they always dropped significantly after the first few weeks. I remember reading an interview from 1988 in which Adrian, I think, said that Can I Play With Madness was the first single which he considered a big hit, because it did not peak and then drop, but made the top ten and stayed there for a significant period of time. A record that hits a peak and quickly drops arguably makes less of an impact on mainstream culture than one that doesn't go as high but stays in the chart for a prolonged period of time.

Meat Loaf's Bat Out of Hell, for instance, is one of the best selling albums of all time (43 million units), and virtually every western household that existed around the late seventies has the record in its collection, but it's highest chart positions in the UK and the US were 9 and 14, respectively.

 

[SinisterMinisterX]

Yes, those are facts, but they are only part of the story. Fame is not only about music charts. Vivian Campbell was personally famous as a guitarist, whatever his sales might have been. He was by far the more famous guitarist at the time. What part of this is hard to understand? Your numbers may be correct but they are only partial evidence.

I was 19 at the time, how old were you? You appear to have no idea how seriously famous he was. When Viv joined Def Lep, the big news wasn't Def Lep getting a new guy - the big news was "holy shit, Vivian Campbell in Def Leppard!?" I actually saw all this happen. I assure you, my account is correct, and your sales figures don't contradict it.

 

[nibblet]

Chart positions are deceptive. Maiden singles and albums notoriously sell well upon their release, which explains their high chart positions, but they always dropped significantly after the first few weeks. I remember reading an interview from 1988 in which Adrian, I think, said that Can I Play With Madness was the first single which he considered a big hit, because it did not peak and then drop, but made the top ten and stayed there for a significant period of time. A record that hits a peak and quickly drops arguably makes less of an impact on mainstream culture than one that doesn't go as high but stays in the chart for a prolonged period of time.

Meat Loaf's Bat Out of Hell, for instance, is one of the best selling albums of all time (43 million units), and virtually every western household that existed around the late seventies has the record in its collection, but it's highest chart positions in the UK and the US were 9 and 14, respectively.

WHat you say is true for the UK, and today worldwide. But you are very much mistaken in the context of this conversation.

Facts:

No Maiden album in the 80s debut at its peak position in America - they all climbed to their peak.

Maiden albums had a far better chart run than Dio albums in the 80s in terms of weeks spent on the chart.

 

[Perun]

That may be true, but you need to quote the complete figures if you want to make a point out of it. Besides, I think SMX is making the strong points here, I'm just making annotations.

 

[nibblet]

Yes, those are facts, but they are only part of the story. Fame is not only about music charts. Vivian Campbell was personally famous as a guitarist, whatever his sales might have been. He was by far the more famous guitarist at the time. What part of this is hard to understand? Your numbers may be correct but they are only partial evidence.

I was 19 at the time, how old were you? You appear to have no idea how seriously famous he was. When Viv joined Def Lep, the big news wasn't Def Lep getting a new guy - the big news was "holy shit, Vivian Campbell in Def Leppard!?" I actually saw all this happen. I assure you, my account is correct, and your sales figures don't contradict it.

I could probably accept you own view with a bit more of an open mind but you have made claims that have proven to be very incorrect.

You stated that Dio were huge in America - but their album chart runs and sales were not as big as Maiden at any time.
You started that Dio had mainstream hits in the USA - but Dio have never had a hit single in the USA and even on rock radio they have had even less success than Maiden.

You made the above claims to champion your argument that Vivian Campbell was 'way more successful and popular' than Adrian Smith in the 80s, and when it is pointed out that Vivian never recorded a Top 20 hit album in the whole of the 80s compared to Adrian's run of success with Maiden....you revert to 'your own experience'. Well, sorry, the last I have to say in this matter with you is that your own experiences of the time is not supported by any facts.

 

[nibblet]

That may be true, but you need to quote the complete figures if you want to make a point out of it. Besides, I think SMX is making the strong points here, I'm just making annotations.

With respect, his points, along with some of your understandings, have all proved to be wrong (e.g the notion that Dio had mainstream hits singles and huge albums).
.

 

[Perun]

You stated that Dio were huge in America - but their album chart runs and sales were not as big as Maiden at any time.

SMX never claimed the boldfaced part, just for the record.

 

[SinisterMinisterX]

You want some relevant information about general fame? Let's talk magazine cover appearances.

Guitar For The Practicing Musician was the biggest hard rock / metal mag of the time. Though aimed at musicians (and every rock musician in the 80s read it religiously, I assure you), it was also popular among non-musicians for the interviews. In 1992, it was the top-selling magazine in America for 6 months.

How many covers did Maiden get?

Now let's see about Viv...

A 2:1 ratio of Vivian Campbell to Iron Maiden. I'd say this was typical of most magazines.

I was a subscriber to this magazine and still have many issues, including 5 of the 6 above. (Used to have all 6, lost one.) I do not recall any other Vivian Campbell or Iron Maiden covers offhand. I do believe that this is the complete collection.

 

[nibblet]

SMX never claimed the boldfaced part, just for the record.

Granted, but his of stating that Dio was huge implied that they were bigger than Maiden, hence why, in his opinion, Vivian was way more popular and famous than Adrian. Yet, as I have pointed out, at no stage did Dio's sales rival Maiden and Dio certainly never had any mainstream hits and their actual rock radio airplay was no better than Maidens.
I see he has now moved onto magazine front covers.... He could be right about Dio getting more album covers. Who knows?

Anyhow, you yourself raised the issue of Maiden chart positions being deceptive because they peaked high and then dropped off. As i have said, this was true of the UK....but not the USA.

In the USA, not one album in the 80s peaked on its opening week. SIT was the bands highest charting album in America and here is its Billboard chart run:-

81-25-18-15-14-13-11-14-15-19-23-26- 26-24-23-27-31-36-40-46-46-48-66-70-83-92-93-113-113-120-127-126-142-153-149-164-197-195-188

As you can see, it spent a couple of months reaching its peak and certainly didn't drop like a stone thereafter.

 

[Perun]

With respect, his points, along with some of your understandings, have all proved to be wrong (e.g the notion that Dio had mainstream hits singles and huge albums).

You are evidently interested in winning an argument instead of having an in-depth discussion, so you pound on 'having proven somebody wrong' by putting claims into other people's mouths, and thus ignoring the rest of their argumentation. Nobody said Dio outsold Maiden, and the idea of what constitutes a 'hit' is something that could have been discussed here. 'Huge' is relative - especially when talking about 1980s metal. But I hand you the victory and I'm out of this.

 

[nibblet]

You are evidently interested in winning an argument instead of having an in-depth discussion, so you pound on 'having proven somebody wrong' by putting claims into other people's mouths, and thus ignoring the rest of their argumentation. Nobody said Dio outsold Maiden, and the idea of what constitutes a 'hit' is something that could have been discussed here. 'Huge' is relative - especially when talking about 1980s metal. But I hand you the victory and I'm out of this.

In-depth discussion need to be based on accurate facts, and where inaccuracies are pointed out, I have simply pointed this out.

An argument was made by one person that Vivian Campbell was 'way more famous and popular' then Adrian Smith in the 80s.
In support of this argument claims were made that Vivian's 3 Dio albums were huge hits and produced 'mainstream' hit singles (the 'huge' clearly suggesting a relative comparison to Maiden's album with Adrian at the time).. I have simply pointed out that these claims are not true and that Maiden sold more and charted higher than Dio. Claims have also been made that Vivian played on tracks when he did not actually do so (ie. 'Here I Go Again' by Whitesnake).

In response, you yourself suggested that Maiden's chart stats could be misleading as their albums charted highly in the opening week and then dropped. Again, in the context of the 80s, this was certainly not true for Maiden albums in the USA - where their albums spent several weeks or months climbing to their peaks. And so, I have simply pointed this out.

It is not a case of simply winning an argument, but just pointing out inaccuracies and untruths in some of the comments being made - in order for any discussion to take place on actual facts.