These Colours Don't Run

[Anonymous]

Re: 'Brighter Than A Thousand Suns'

I do want to discuss the following lyrics:

We are not the sons of God
We are not his chosen people now
We have crossed the path he trod
We will feel the pain of his beginning

I LOVE how the last lines plays out in respect to those, the opening lines . .

Holy Father We Have Sinned

And to me, "We will feel the pain of his beginning" is how we can create absoloute darkness by creating absoloute light, as opposed to God's version where he created light to remove absoloute darkness. .

"Trinity Reformed" is . .  well "ABandOn"'s id pic . . The symbol for nuclear-radiation ..  (IMO)

Just brilliant stuff . .
After FTGGOG, this is my fav track of the album and I absoloutely love Bruce's vocals on this!

Also, This song ALWAYS reminds me of "Manhattan Project" By RUSH
Another great song themed over the same topic, but where that is more about the events of Hiroshima & Nagasaki, this song, for me, is more about the ever approaching threat of another nuclear war where all nations would unleash this fury over each other and . . 

And Man said, Let There Be Darkness . . .

 

[ABandOn]

Re: 'Brighter Than A Thousand Suns'

"Trinity Reformed" is . .  well "ABandOn"'s id pic . . The symbol for nuclear-radiation ..  (IMO)

I didn't notice it...it's called a trifoil too

Anyway, there's a strong analogy between the lyrics "Holy Father We Have Sinned" and the words of Enola Gay co-pilot, captain Richard Lewis, just after the explosion of the bomb on Hiroshima: "My God, what have we done?".
Man usually understands his errors when it's too late to go back.

 

[Raven]

Re: 'These Colours Don't Run'

I remember seeing what can only be described as one of the most shocking piece of news footage I've seen that was shot during the last Gulf war (or Iraq War). We had a camera crew that was following some US army soldiers. In this particular footage the US soldier had an Iraqi soldier cornered, the Iraqi was going nowhere as he was obviously injured (this you could not see as he was behind a wall, but you could hear his cries). The US soldier lent over that wall and pointed his rifle down and shot one bullet. He then turned to camera and just said two words "All gone".
Quite the heroic act of peace making.

Maybe this could be the difference between the way the US soldiers and British soldiers interpret a war.

Unfortunately, there are always exceptions.  While the average infantry is not completely exempt from combat situations in a man-to-man situation, intelligence, long range strikes and mechanised warfare mean that situations such as D-day have not been repeated to such an extent.  The fact that the Western armies far surpass the armed forces of any nation that they invade, and the fact that the British/UN armed presence on foreign soil in the past 10 years or so has been mostly limited to attempting to end civil war in various nations (Former Yugoslavia, Sierra Leone, Sudan, Somalia) is making infantry, while not obsolete, at least used more in stabilising the country and keeping the peace.  Man can, however, be brought to acts of sheer barbarism during war...it can also bring out the best in some people. 'The devil on one side, the angel the other, but which path do you take?'

 

[Anonymous]

Re: 'These Colours Don't Run'

Again, this shows nothing but the fearless nature of a soldier in the unforgiving terrain of war... You do what needs to be done!

Do you honestly think soldiers are fearless? Doing what needs to be done (what a horrible way to put it when you realise what we are talking about) has little to do with 'being a man'. That's propaganda! The truth about combat psychology is much more complex.

 

[Anonymous]

Re: 'These Colours Don't Run'

...the fearless nature of a soldier in the unforgiving terrain of war. As a soldier, you know what you may have to face, but you do not cower out . . You do what needs to be done!

[...]

Whatever your reason was for going into this battle, you're a soldier for your contry now and try as you may, you can't escape the sense of national pride and raw patriotism that comes with holding that title!
You lose all sense of fear with and realize that even in the face of "cold bloody war" ..  These Colors Don't Run . .

I have rarely read so much bullshit, although I'd say that it could only have been written by someone who has not even tried to imagine what the experience of combat can be in real life.

"Do what needs to be done"? And what exactly might that be, eh? All a soldier thinks about during the battle is 1. his own survival; 2. that of his fellow soldiers. And that, my friend is what needs to be done.

The feelings of national pride and patriotism in combat is utter and absolute nonsense. Complete bullshit! If anything, this is not what a soldier feels when he storms a position or simply defends his own. "Fuck the country, I'm too young to die!" is more likely to be his main thought in such conditions.

As for losing the sense of fear, let me correct you here too. Fear is the main feeling that grips a soldier in the midst of battle. And fear is what drives him. The romantic legend of the fearless warrior is complete crap, and only a little percentage of total nutters don't feel fear in combat. And those ones are usually classified as psychopaths by the professionals in the field.

So, jacen110091, use your brain before you start typing bollocks like this. You don't have the first clue of what you're talking about and you'd better keep quiet on this particular topic. Just count yourself lucky to be living in some dream world of your where soldiers wave proudly and fearlessly a flag in the middle of a bloody battlefield. Just know that reality is quite different from your romantic ideas on the subject. Very different! 

 

[Anomica]

Re: 'These Colours Don't Run'

For the passion, for the glory, for the memories, for the money
You're a soldier, for your country what's the difference, all the same

I see this as the different reasons you're given in order to join the military - from recruiters, media, politicians and so on. But in the end, it's all the same, all  you can do is try to stay alive and help your mates survive. The reason you joined doesn't matter anymore.

 

[Raven]

Re: 'These Colours Don't Run'

As for losing the sense of fear, let me correct you here too. Fear is the main feeling that grips a soldier in the midst of battle. And fear is what drives him. The romantic legend of the fearless warrior is complete crap, and only a little percentage of total nutters don't feel fear in combat. And those ones are usually classified as psychopaths by the professionals in the field.

Acute fear in life-threatening situations releases adrenalin into the bloodstream, doesn't it?  In most cases, fear for your life is what keeps you alive in combat.  But sometimes bravery can be an even stronger bolster, overriding fear...in very old (and mostly irrelevant) cases, such as WWI (where the 'Come on lads, over the top!' call to arms was simply suicide) or (in one case that I can think of) Caesar's first invasion of Britain, where the standard bearer of the IXth Legion leapt out of the landing boat first, so his comrades would follow him to protect the Eagle.  Notice how both these cases happened many years ago? 

As I said, the role of the soldier is changing...national pride is no longer required; most soldiers join up simply because they get good pay for what is essentially drilling for most of the year, or because they like the military precision required...they certainly don't join up thinking, 'I would love to die for my country'.  If they see comrades in danger, they will (most likely) try to save them, if they can, but that's the extent of the soldier's 'fearlessness' today (and since even then they're simply supressing their fear for a moment...you can never escape the thought that the bullet may have your name on it).

Incidentally, there are three images I get when I read the title 'These Colours Don't Run'.  The first is that of The Charge of the Light Brigade (the old 1936 film with Erroll Flynn; the one Maiden use in 'The Trooper' video), with the 600 charging straight into cannon fire.  The one shot of a galloping cavalry man leaning down to grab the Union Jack left behind by a dying standard-bearer says to me 'These Colours Don't Run' (Looking simply at the title, of course..it bears no relation to the lyrics).  The other two are WWII situations.  The first is the eponymous shot of several American soldiers raising a flag on one of the D-Day beaches (possibly Omaha, but I can't be sure).  The final one is the awe-inspiring shot of two Red Army soldiers hoisting the Soviet flag over the ruinied Reichstag building in Berlin in 1945; not awe-inspiring for any patriotism, but because all around Berlin is in ruins, and from the top of the building you can see the full might of the Allied armour roaming through the streets...it just hits home how violent the end of the War in Europe was, that it could decimat nearly 2/3 of an entire city.

 

[Anonymous]

Re: 'These Colours Don't Run'

...shot of several American soldiers raising a flag on one of the D-Day beaches (possibly Omaha, but I can't be sure).

I suppose that you're thinking of this picture:

Well, it was not shot in Normandy, but at Iwo Jima... and it was staged for the photographer!

 

[Raven]

Re: 'These Colours Don't Run'

I suppose that you're thinking of this picture:

Well, it was not shot in Normandy, but at Iwo Jima... and it was staged for the photographer!

That's the one.  Well, it's hard to escape the propoganda machine...'I want YOU!'

 

[Anonymous]

Re: 'These Colours Don't Run'

Acute fear in life-threatening situations releases adrenalin into the bloodstream, doesn't it?  In most cases, fear for your life is what keeps you alive in combat.  But sometimes bravery can be an even stronger bolster, overriding fear...

I highly doubt that fear and bravery in combat situations are actually so far apart. I think bravery can often be a symptom of fear, the way of thinking 'I'll die in any case, let's make the best out of it'.

in very old (and mostly irrelevant) cases, such as WWI (where the 'Come on lads, over the top!' call to arms was simply suicide) or (in one case that I can think of) Caesar's first invasion of Britain, where the standard bearer of the IXth Legion leapt out of the landing boat first, so his comrades would follow him to protect the Eagle.  Notice how both these cases happened many years ago? 

I don't think that combat was a less terrible experience in antiquity. The fact is that back in the 'good' old days, people were fighting hand-to-hand, with swords and lances and were exposed to a much more direct and drastic threat to their lives, right in front of them. It is a fact that this type of close combat is among the worst thing a human being can experience. I really don't think the soldiers of old were happier people- fact only is that the historians of their age could be much more selective about the information they wanted to pass.

As I said, the role of the soldier is changing...national pride is no longer required; most soldiers join up simply because they get good pay for what is essentially drilling for most of the year, or because they like the military precision required...they certainly don't join up thinking, 'I would love to die for my country'.  If they see comrades in danger, they will (most likely) try to save them, if they can, but that's the extent of the soldier's 'fearlessness' today (and since even then they're simply supressing their fear for a moment...you can never escape the thought that the bullet may have your name on it).

To many people, the army is a safe place to get pay, food and shelter. In fact, these arguments were brought to me once by an African I was talking to when I told him I wouldn't join the army. It can also be an anchor of hope for the poor people in rich countries that they might escape their misery after service ends. The reasons for joining the army are many and valid, the only thing is that most people have no idea what price they will pay.

Incidentally, there are three images I get when I read the title 'These Colours Don't Run'.  The first is that of The Charge of the Light Brigade (the old 1936 film with Erroll Flynn; the one Maiden use in 'The Trooper' video), with the 600 charging straight into cannon fire.  The one shot of a galloping cavalry man leaning down to grab the Union Jack left behind by a dying standard-bearer says to me 'These Colours Don't Run' (Looking simply at the title, of course..it bears no relation to the lyrics).

That image is fictional and there is absolutely nothing that proves this actually happened. Remember the time the film was made.

The other two are WWII situations.  The first is the eponymous shot of several American soldiers raising a flag on one of the D-Day beaches (possibly Omaha, but I can't be sure).

As Mav said, that was staged.

The final one is the awe-inspiring shot of two Red Army soldiers hoisting the Soviet flag over the ruinied Reichstag building in Berlin in 1945; not awe-inspiring for any patriotism, but because all around Berlin is in ruins, and from the top of the building you can see the full might of the Allied armour roaming through the streets...it just hits home how violent the end of the War in Europe was, that it could decimat nearly 2/3 of an entire city.

That was one soldier, and the picture was also staged- though recreating an actual action. This is a particularly haunting picture, and even more so for a Berliner like me. Until very recently after re-unification, the Reichstag was a stand-alone building on a wide field (the wall was running a couple of meters behind it) with only two other pre-war buildings in sight, one being the Brandenburg Gate (behind the wall), the other one being, quite ironically, the Swiss embassy. Everything you see in the background is gone.
The picture was made for distribution in the Soviet Union, and it was actually edited; the soldier actually wore a good number of plundered watches on his arms.

 

[Anonymous]

Re: 'These Colours Don't Run'

Doing what needs to be done (what a horrible way to put it when you realise what we are talking about) has little to do with 'being a man'.

I never meant it to sound like male bravado, I apologize if thats what it comes off as . .
But fact is, knowing what you have to do is what makes it far tougher!

Today, we don't have 10,000 people standing on either side of an open terrain ready to charge in the opposite direction. War has become something very ugly and inhuman . . Who do you think doesn't know that?
And yet these guys (or gals) are out there fighting their own inner-demons . . or "The Darkness" as Joeseph Conrad put it . .

PTSD is exactly that, "POST TRAUMATIC" !
A soldier who's just signed up isn't thinking of what kinda mental scars he'll carry when he gets back.. He's not thinking of the innocent civilians that he's gonna have to murder! Or the death and blood and destruction he'll be breathing all around him!

He does it believing its an act of bravery . .  something noble and righteous!
Something "that needs to be done" . .

I have rarely read so much bullshit, although I'd say that it could only have been written by someone who has not even tried to imagine what the experience of combat can be in real life.

Jeez dude, lighten up . .

War sucks, I'll agree with you on that but I really don't see the point of going feral on someone else's PoV, wrong as it may seem to you . .


Fact is, you're right . .
I've never seen any war any closer than my TV screen . . I've never been in a position where I would have to kill in the name of my country . . I've never seen a fellow mate of mine die for sake of some strange political propaganda . .

But the thing is if I try and reason it out, I end up with the conclusion that all soldiers are absoloute morons who are stupid enough to fall for such crappy propaganda and deserve to die because of it!

No one can justify a war, and yet we celebrate days of Independence and local victories for generations!!

So until the day, and may that day never come, I become a soldier sent off to kill for my nation, all I have is my "romantic ideas" about soldiers . .
If not, then I have nothing left for the memory of that soldier.. No respect or reverence  . .
And I truly feel they deserve that!

A war, any war . . is wrong and should be avoided at all costs,
But we all know that doesn't happen as much as it probably ought to!

So why does a soldier fight if all he's thinking about is "1. his own survival; 2. that of his fellow soldiers" . .
Stay home, drink a beer and let the white coats thrash about in their diplomatic meetings!

As I said, the role of the soldier is changing...national pride is no longer required; most soldiers join up simply because they get good pay for what is essentially drilling for most of the year, or because they like the military precision required...they certainly don't join up thinking, 'I would love to die for my country'.

I agree completely!
But then we're talking about a profession, not a war . . and one thing we all can agree to (i hope) is that this song is based around soldiers facing active combat!
If you know your nation to be at war with someone, or invading an enemy front "in some foreign land" . . You won't sign up for the army thinking "I'll get good pay for what is essentially drilling" or such


But again, thats just my 2 cents . .

Up The Irons!
(Great song btw, isn't it?)

 

[Anonymous]

Re: 'These Colours Don't Run'

Stay home, drink a beer and let the white coats thrash about in their diplomatic meetings!

If only things could be so simple...

 

[Raven]

Re: 'These Colours Don't Run'

I don't think that combat was a less terrible experience in antiquity. The fact is that back in the 'good' old days, people were fighting hand-to-hand, with swords and lances and were exposed to a much more direct and drastic threat to their lives, right in front of them. It is a fact that this type of close combat is among the worst thing a human being can experience. I really don't think the soldiers of old were happier people- fact only is that the historians of their age could be much more selective about the information they wanted to pass.

I agree, but with that comment, I just wanted to make the point that the idea of fighting under colours, or some symbol of your regiment, is pretty dated, and that (especially since WWI) the idea of risking life and limb for your country's honour hasn't really entered into many soldier's minds.

That image is fictional and there is absolutely nothing that proves this actually happened. Remember the time the film was made.

That was one soldier, and the picture was also staged- though recreating an actual action. This is a particularly haunting picture, and even more so for a Berliner like me. Until very recently after re-unification, the Reichstag was a stand-alone building on a wide field (the wall was running a couple of meters behind it) with only two other pre-war buildings in sight, one being the Brandenburg Gate (behind the wall), the other one being, quite ironically, the Swiss embassy. Everything you see in the background is gone.
The picture was made for distribution in the Soviet Union, and it was actually edited; the soldier actually wore a good number of plundered watches on his arms.

It wasn't really the idea of patriotism that I was thinking of, but simply the image, whether it was historically accurate or not.  Even if the pictures were pre-planned, the link with the song's title jumped out at me...I wasn't suggesting that the soldier's involved were especially courageous, simply that the actions they were undertaking in the photos/film were ones that sprung into my mind...again, the idea of dying for a flag is a very outdated one.

 

[Anonymous]

Re: 'These Colours Don't Run'

the idea of dying for a flag is a very outdated one.

 

[Anonymous]

Re: 'These Colours Don't Run'

the idea of dying for a flag is a very outdated one.

Y'know what, i'm trying . . i really am, but I can't agree with that!

Your flag . .  your nation . .  your home . . your way of life!
What do you fight for if not those?

I refuse to believe that all soldiers are gonna whore off their lives for a few bits of cash!

The only other thing that can possibly drive someone to fight . . to kill ..  is religion, and thats a whole 'nother topic alltogether!

 

[Anonymous]

Re: 'These Colours Don't Run'

You really are a big romantic, jacen110091. So naive it's almost impossible to believe... 

 

[Albie]

Re: 'These Colours Don't Run'

I would think it stems from the reason the person enlists into the army in the first place. To learn a trade? To just be employed? Or for some patriotic reason that they may fight one day for their country? (there will be undoubtedly other reasons). If it is solely the latter, then yes maybe "the idea of dying for a flag is a very outdated one" is not true. And yes, the person who enlists will know that at some point they would be called into combat, but I'm not sure they all sign up in the hope it happens.

 

[Anonymous]

Re: 'These Colours Don't Run'

Y'know what, i'm trying . . i really am, but I can't agree with that!

Your flag . .  your nation . .  your home . . your way of life!
What do you fight for if not those?

I refuse to believe that all soldiers are gonna whore off their lives for a few bits of cash!

The only other thing that can possibly drive someone to fight . . to kill ..  is religion, and thats a whole 'nother topic alltogether!

Well, believe it or not, but there is a thread in the 'General Discussion' entitled 'Worth Fighting For'. It attempts to answer precisely this question.
In case you can't be bothered to look for it, here are a couple of ideas:

-Your loved ones
-Your rights
-Your freedoms
-Your own beliefs

Don't let anybody tell you what you should fight, and/or die for. Those things that are worth fighting for are those that matter to yourself, that are really important to you. And only you can know what that is.

 

[Anonymous]

Re: 'These Colours Don't Run'

You really are a big romantic, jacen110091. So naive it's almost impossible to believe...   

You've said that already . .

And thats not what I wanna argue here . .

Tell me Maverick, when a person between the age of say 18-25 signs up for the armed forces of his nation . . And his nation is involved in some manner of active warfare at the time . .

What is he thinking?



Not before his first battle . .
Not when he's killing someone . .  
Not when he's staring over a blood stained battlefield . .
Not when he's coming back home . .  Not when he's scarred and alone and scared for life!

But when that young man decides to go out to some foreign land . .
What is he thinking?

 

[Anonymous]

Re: 'These Colours Don't Run'

A former friend of mine -- an electrical engineer -- couldn't find a job after he graduated back in 1980. So he joined the Royal Navy. He had a nice quiet job on a ship in Portsmouth. Then, in 1982, he heard that his ship was going to the Falklands. He resigned the very day he heard the news. "Better unemployed than dead," he told me when I met him in 1990.

A bloke I met in the Forces, a mechanic specialised in diesel engines, told me a similar story about his reasons to join the Army. "Needless to say, I'll get the fuck out at the first sign of trouble. I repair engines, I don't want to risk my life or go kill people," he added after telling me he enjoyed a nice cushy job.

How's that for patriotism and glorious reasons to join up, eh?