OPETH SURVIVOR 2016: Results -> The sun sets forever over Blackwater Park!

Things are going to get interesting when My Arms, Your Hearse joins the game, as due to the wall-of-sound production, lack of standout bass parts, and general riffage I find it to be their weakest effort behind Heritage...
If I may ask, how does this not apply on Still Life? I wouldn't mind being pointed out on details in its music which seem to drown in... well, what you said about MAYH. Just curious how you see the differences between these albums and also comparing with older (and later) work.
 
Mosh you really value these works for their own qualities. I enjoyed reading that. Great positive vibe. The part about disjointed/experience is well explained.

Night Prowler, Opeth doesn't rely on Maidenish melodies too much. They focused on guitar lines, and Wishbone Ash was mentioned as one of the ingredients in the mix. Logical that they were into this style. And a joy to the ear if you like Maiden. It's good, these are intriguing harmonies, and more complex than the average band. They put lots of detail in it and did something original with using two guitars interacting with each other. I'm holding my breath for Knick's input/votes later on.

Ignored what I had to say then huh? :p
 
If I may ask, how does this not apply on Still Life? I wouldn't mind being pointed out on details in its music which seem to drown in... well, what you said about MAYH. Just curious how you see the differences between these albums and also comparing with older (and later) work.

Still Life was what I consider to be the starting point of their "core" sound, which continued with Blackwater Park (the most similar album to Still Life) and unfortunately ended after Watershed. The riffs and songs on Still Life are more unique from each other, tighter, and in general feature more rhythm section grooves when compared to the guitar-driven MAYH. I can't even think of any memorable musical moments from MAYH that aren't guitar-driven. This, of course, was largely due to Akerfeldt handling bass duties for MAYH and Mendez playing (and writing?) the bass for Still Life.
 
Flash, Sorry if that looked so. I guess I didn't know what to respond. I see you appreciate a great deal of the first album and explsin well which parts you like but I don't "agree" with the coherence "demands" you and some others seem to have with this type of music.

I'll play these albums in my car soon. Looking forward to all these sudden twists!

Detective, I'll focus on the SL bass and see how that improves my listening experience. This album always felt as a monotone wall of (rhythm guitar) sound with lack of intricate music, lack of detail, lack of variation. Such a world of difference with earlier but also later work.

When the time comes I'd like to read which moments people like in certain Still Life songs.

MAYH has more infective moments for me. Thanks to the previous survivor. Should have bought the CD.
 
Foro do you have a 5.1 system? The 5.1 version of Still Life (BWP too for that matter) really made me notice things about the album I hadn't before. Better separation of the instruments and more clarity. A much more "colorful" version of the album overall.
 
Interesting to know. I do have that system, but I don't have that version (any CD version even because I gave it away). I'll do my best with YouTube clips.
 
Flash, Sorry if that looked so. I guess I didn't know what to respond. I see you appreciate a great deal of the first album and explsin well which parts you like but I don't "agree" with the coherence "demands" you and some others seem to have with this type of music.

I wouldn't say it's a demand, more like taste.
 
I only really have problems with coherence when a part fades out before something completely unrelated follows, like in Apostle In Triumph. Same problem with Fountain of Lamneth by Rush, for example.
 
Orchid is not a perfect Opeth album, nor a great album, but it has a true air of magic about it. This is one of the creepiest-sounding, most atmospheric Opeth albums despite being crammed with riffs, insane tempo and rhythm changes, and an overall amateur take on complex songwriting. Something of the occult lives in the heart of Orchid.

In Mist She Was Standing - Nearly two minutes of swinging, counterpoint pirate riffs before the evil chord from hell and the first taste of a real Opeth musical section. The vocals are adequate, but don’t stand out in any way. Mikael’s first “OOH!” into that killer groove is amazing. Then we come to the first of many acoustic arpeggio sections and I remember that they are part of what I don’t love about this album. The arpeggios that appear throughout the album are all incredibly similar and make it hard to differentiate between parts and songs. Granted, they fit here (and often in other places), but it’s all a bit much. The constant shifts in dynamics continue throughout this mini-epic and it’s all very entertaining stuff. I love the bass buildup halfway through, it’s really powerful. The random, “SCREAM! SCREAM! SCREEEEEEAAAAM!!!!” section after it, however, I could do without. By the time the pirate riffs return I think the song has overstayed it’s welcome, but then comes that Devil’s Turnaround section at 9:30 and I’m still content to be listening. Kind of like Black Rose Immortal on Morningrise I think the song could end with Mikael whispering the title, but what comes after it is really quite tasty: dark minstrel music leading into a killer outro. It could end cleaner, but I’m splitting hairs. Not incredible, but a very strong (re: ballsy and pretentious) opening track from a debut album. 8/10

Under the Weeping Moon - A very effective intro made even cooler by the riffs kicking in (and that bass slide FTW)! This is a much more structured song and I really appreciate it. It hints at some of the songwriting we will hear on future releases. The swirling guitar that comes in before the breakdown is so incredible, followed by Mikael’s incredibly evil wail layered over just the guitars. I used to hate the mid-section, but goddamned if it’s not a perfect use of tone and sinister ambiance. The panning really works for them on this album. The slow plod of the drum buildup into the double bass, followed by the intense chugging is truly masterful. It’s something that a band playing it safe would never do, but Opeth are just the right amount of genius, insane, and daring to pull it off. Once again, the bass kills it in this song (especially that jazzy walking stuff happening about 7 minutes in). It’s weird that these pre-Mendez albums seem to have more standout bass lines - a matter of mixing or stylistic choice? Anyway, this song isn’t perfect, mostly because of the vocals. I’m not a fan of Mikael’s whispering. Still a great tune, though. 9/10

Silhouette - I love this piece, but it’s not perfect and it’s not really a song. I feel like if this album came out in 2002, this would have been a hidden track. Anyway, brilliant playing and it’s just plain spooky. Also so random considering the band had no keyboard/piano player, yet this song features nothing but. 7/10 - but will be getting a vote

Forest of October - The intro is cool, but I feel like the song would have been more effective starting with the guttural wail and the double bass (especially coming out of Silhouette). I know people love this song, but it feels so scattershot and incoherent to me. The parts are all so brief and nothing ever really builds. I love the dynamics, I just wish they had more time to develop or return. The “OOH” section around 3:15, for example, really could have built to something incredible instead of just cutting out after 10 seconds. I get it, it’s prog, it’s death, it’s a little black, but this is the kind of thing Mikael will start realizing after Morningrise and, IMO, it’s all for the better. Not to mention, that stomp riff is so much cooler than the pirate riff they develop over an entire verse. The guitar solo part is awesome, but the acoustic section that precedes it feels unnecessary. Just like Weeping Moon, the mid-part droning is wonderfully creepy and beautiful once the acoustics and then heavy guitars come in. I far prefer the second half of the song, mostly because of the “Forest of October” vocal section (actually catchy!) and the amazing interplay riff w/ the bass and guitars that follows. The outro riff that comes in under Mikael’s clean crooning is really neat. I wish it ended the song, as the acoustic passage feels tacked on. 8/10 - probably will vote for next round.

The Twilight is My Robe - This song kicks my ass from the get-go and I love it. More pirates! The bass-led first verse is great, as is the way it builds. Mikael sounds confident as hell on this track. Shades of his future growl appear here and they are quite malevolent. The different passages of this song really flow together well for me, more so than any other song on the album (including Weeping Moon). I absolutely adore the middle part, beginning with the clean vocals into the clean guitar leads. It’s probably my favorite part on the album. It’s the first time (other than Silhouette) where I really feel the emotion in the songwriting. And then: that bass kicks in and makes it even better. There’s a strange guitar interplay after this part that sounds Christmasy, right before the acoustic return around 7 minutes in (and what beautiful acoustics they are). Anyway, I love this song and I will hear nothing bad about it. 10/10

Requiem - Half-complete and honestly pointless. It’s pretty, it’s performed well, but it could be cut from the album and nothing would really be lost. Actually, I would prefer it were a long intro to Apostle, as the beginning of that song actually sounds rather similar. A good guitar tune and a nice change of pace, but not of much value as a single track. 7/10 and a vote for the interlude

The Apostle in Triumph - I like the intro, but by this point everything starts to sound the same. I really, really hate the “The rain is pouring down my, NOW!, shivering shoulders” line. It’s just terrible. But, music redeems all again in this song as it continues to loop through twisty counterpoint melodies, acoustic jams, and pummeling double bass. The entire section at 5:20 sounds incredibly advanced and again hints at Opeth’s future. Reminds me possibly of something from MAYH or BWP? Anyway, everything from that on moment is golden, especially “carved on a black stone” and the volume swell/violin section that follows. The melodic riff that comes in around 9 minutes is stellar. The whispering at the end is lame and reminds me of Iced Earth for some reason. Overall, a very good song, though not my favorite. 8/10

One of the most interesting aspects of this album is that, contrary to later Opeth releases, it works in spite of Mikael’s vocal melodies. His voice is what defines this band to me and his melodies are generally a thing of beauty. Yet, on these early albums he hasn’t honed his vocal craft and the lyrics/melodies often sound forced, phoned in, unconfident, or just plain afterthoughts. It’s a testament to his raw talent (and that of the other members) that his still-maturing voice does not drag down this material.

I’ve only spun Morningrise once so far, but my votes for this first round are very clear and obvious.
  • both interludes from Orchid
  • both terrible basement demos
  • Advent and Nectar, being definitely the weakest tracks on the album (and some of my least favorite overall)
 
  • Advent and Nectar, being definitely the weakest tracks on the album (and some of my least favorite overall)

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[Still Life] always felt as a monotone wall of (rhythm guitar) sound with lack of intricate music, lack of detail, lack of variation. Such a world of difference with earlier but also later work.

That's how I feel about MAYH. It stands out as just having too many wall-of-sound guitar riffs with too little riffage and too little dynamics. I'd be lying if I said I could remember one section of When, and the only memorable part I recall from April Ethereal is this cool riff near the end where one guitar chugs and the other plays this neat sliding octave thing. Demon is amazing, Karma has some cool moments (the ending), Credence is a cool little ballad that was nice to hear live on the Heritage tour, and Amen Corner is my favorite song on there mostly due to the brutal riffage in the first few minutes.

This album just seems as an outlier between their long, progressive, somewhat bass-driven blackish metal of the first two records and the sound they perfected from Still Life through Watershed.

It’s weird that these pre-Mendez albums seem to have more standout bass lines - a matter of mixing or stylistic choice?

It was a stylistic choice. One of the main reasons the bass player was fired is because he wanted the bass to take an even more prominent role than it did on their first two albums, and Mikael wanted the complete opposite. I love Mendez, but I can't help but wonder where Opeth's sound would have went with that silky-smooth fretless six string underneath it all...

The Twilight is My Robe - This song kicks my ass from the get-go and I love it. More pirates! The bass-led first verse is great, as is the way it builds. Mikael sounds confident as hell on this track. Shades of his future growl appear here and they are quite malevolent. The different passages of this song really flow together well for me, more so than any other song on the album (including Weeping Moon). I absolutely adore the middle part, beginning with the clean vocals into the clean guitar leads. It’s probably my favorite part on the album. It’s the first time (other than Silhouette) where I really feel the emotion in the songwriting. And then: that bass kicks in and makes it even better. There’s a strange guitar interplay after this part that sounds Christmasy, right before the acoustic return around 7 minutes in (and what beautiful acoustics they are). Anyway, I love this song and I will hear nothing bad about it. 10/10

To each their own, but I've never understood your love for this song. It's not awful or anything (very few Opeth tracks are), but it's by far the weakest full song on Orchid. I like some of the acoustic bits, but everything they do on this track is done better in other songs on the album (and on Morningrise). Just my opinion.

The Apostle in Triumph - I like the intro, but by this point everything starts to sound the same. I really, really hate the “The rain is pouring down my, NOW!, shivering shoulders” line. It’s just terrible. But, music redeems all again in this song as it continues to loop through twisty counterpoint melodies, acoustic jams, and pummeling double bass. The entire section at 5:20 sounds incredibly advanced and again hints at Opeth’s future. Reminds me possibly of something from MAYH or BWP? Anyway, everything from that on moment is golden, especially “carved on a black stone” and the volume swell/violin section that follows.

This is one of my absolute favorite moments of Opeth's entire career. It's downright evil, with all the instruments intertwining perfectly. It reminds me of something out of a Mortal Kombat game, like someone's soul is about to be stolen (and knowing how Mikael admitted that the lyrics on Orchid were black metal nonsense, that's probably what's happening). I honestly wish it lasted longer, because the part after it is astonishingly happy by comparison and just rips off of Forest of October.
 
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Just got my copy of Morningrise in the mail. :shred: Gonna try and get to it today.
 
I completely disagree with Detective.

Apostle of Triumph: least good song, annoying vocal lines (the clean singing), not that grabbing parts as in other epics from this album.

Twilight: probably contains some of the best sections from the album. Those harmonies are absolutely attractive.

Mist: best song as a whole. So many good parts, not a dull instant. On the contrary.

On the first bass player. The early albums give more room for the bass stylistically. More guitar lines, clearly separated. Bass lines stick out more in such music. More than in heavy wall of sound Opeth. Later bass gets less important with a lesser independent role. I also dare to say the current bass player is less good but then again, the music does not ask to show more interesting playing.

I am already playing the third and fourth album in preparation and must say that April is pretty memorable. At this point I am pretty sure I like the album more than Still Life. Still Life's first half has more to like for me then the second I think. Then it gets more of the same or at least not of that level. Opening epic: probably strongest song from the album.
 
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Can't remember the last time I listened to Morningrise, I hardly remember anything about it so this will be a very fresh listen.

Advent - Love the atmospheric start to this and the opening riff is brutal. This has all the positive qualities of the Orchid material, but feels like the band are already evolving. The dynamics and riffs are much better here. Love the evil riff at the 9:30 mark with the frantic jazzy bass playing underneath. The final verses are so evil sounding. Amazing climax that gives me goosebumps. The acoustic ending is a bit long but that's OK.
Advent is an excellent track, maybe the best between the two albums.

The Night and Silent Water - A promising start to this one with another great riff. The guitar harmonies seem a bit more elaborate this time, especially underneath the vocal parts. The acoustic bit is very nice, really proggy drum work there. I really like how this track is a total contrast from Advent. One thing I don't like about Orchid is that the songs are all very similar. This album seems to have more variety so far. The final verse is interesting.

This song is also very coherent overall. The parts flow into each other very smoothly. Good tune.

Nectar - The acoustic guitar doubling the distorted guitars is something that Opeth did more later on, it's a cool effect. Some really sinister stuff in the second half of the song. Pretty sure the chord progression during the outro is the same as the main riff from The Grand Conjuration. Very unexpected ending that works perfectly.

Nectar is another great track close to the level of Advent.

Black Rose Immortal - The longest Opeth song! This one has a nice evil intro to start it off. Surprised that with a 20 minute track there's no calm intro or anything, they go right into it. The bass work during the opening verses is really buried, but if you can pick it out it's pretty cool.

Love the riff at the 3:50 mark. Very evil sounding stuff.

The section that follows (I assume the water sound effects marks the second "movement") is not as exciting, but there are still some nice riffs and harmonies.

The frantic section that starts with the bass is awesome. Really nice short drum solo before the first guitar solo. One of the best Opeth instrumental sections I've heard. Just wish it wasn't so short.

The a capella part is pretty interesting, it seems Mikael is more comfortable with his clean singing on this album. More clean sung parts and less effects. The melodies aren't quite there yet though.

Some nice acoustic work follows. Great build back into the heavy section. Love the harmonies after the next heavy verse.

The section after Mikael whispers the title of the song is very hypnotic.

This was actually better than I remembered. It's ambitious and most of the parts aren't boring. If you can get past its denseness, there's some really interesting stuff throughout the song. The first half is probably more interesting than the second half overall though.

To Bid You Farewell - An obvious prototype for later classic Opeth ballads. The beginning is dragged out way too much, even if it's a nice musical passage. Once it finally shifts gears it's a really haunting ballad. Love the jazzy guitar solo after the first verse. Wasn't expecting it to go heavy, that was a nice twist.

Wow, I'm really pleasantly surprised. I previously had very poor memories of this album but after that listen I think it's easily better than Orchid. Not that Orchid is a bad album, but this feels like a major evolution in their sound. The songs are arranged better, the acoustic parts are more adventurous, and the atmosphere is even more intense. One flaw I noticed is that every single song is about a minute or two too long. There's one section that's just a little too long. It's like they wanted to make sure every song was at least ten minutes. Ironically, the song that suffered the least from this was Black Rose Immortal. There's one repetitive part toward the end, but I think the repetition there works. A very Floydian hypnotic vibe there. That flaw aside, this is a really solid effort. Not a single bad song.

Advent
Nectar
To Bid You Farewell
Black Rose Immortal
The Night and Silent Water

Edit: Voting for the two instrumental pieces, the basement demos, Apostle In Triumph (the weakest real song here), and The Night and Silent Water.

The basement demos are interesting for their historic quality at least. It's fun recognizing parts that would turn up in other songs.
 
My issue with Black Rose Immortal isn't its denseness, it's that the transitions are very awkward. Seperately, parts are very cool indeed, but that's not what constitutes a great song.

The wave sounds that abruptly end the first part and transition into an entirely different melody with an entirely different feel is laughably bad.
 
The wave sounds that abruptly end the first part and transition into an entirely different melody with an entirely different feel is laughably bad.

If the song has a weak part, I'd say this is it. Otherwise I honestly think it's a 10/10 for their early material and easily the strongest song on both of these albums.

Anyway, I voted for the demos + interludes + Twilight + Nectar.
 
Nectar is the sublime track on this album. More on this later. 2nd one probably Night and Silent Water. The album closer is odd. I could do without the first dull three minutes and the rest could go on Damnation. :)
Advent I find it one the least ones, maybe the least.
 
One flaw I noticed is that every single song is about a minute or two too long.
If I have one kind of beef it is exactly this. I do not take it very lightly when appreciating a long epic song.
Advent - Love the atmospheric start to this and the opening riff is brutal. This has all the positive qualities of the Orchid material, but feels like the band are already evolving. The dynamics and riffs are much better here. Love the evil riff at the 9:30 mark with the frantic jazzy bass playing underneath. The final verses are so evil sounding. Amazing climax that gives me goosebumps. The acoustic ending is a bit long but that's OK.
I find it overlong, just like an earlier riff in the beginning. I see the cool playing (e.g. the bass) in this song, there's really some great technique going on (I'm sure that's very appealing to DT fans as well), but I do not find the music in some segments good enough to have so much of it repeated. That's why I prefer the other songs. IMO it does not have one single wow moment. Nor does it have all the positive Orchid qualities. I miss a mightly melody or stupefying harmony on this song. Compared to other songs from Morningrise, I also miss a magnificent riff/chords section, such as in the heavy part of To Bid You Farewell. Don't get me wrong, I like the track for its adventurous nature. This song has good parts but I find it too lengthy to be seen as a favourite.
To Bid You Farewell - An obvious prototype for later classic Opeth ballads. The beginning is dragged out way too much, even if it's a nice musical passage. Once it finally shifts gears it's a really haunting ballad. Love the jazzy guitar solo after the first verse. Wasn't expecting it to go heavy, that was a nice twist.
Fantastic part, that heavy one, isn't it? There's a wealth of melody in that riff as well. I love such style. The vibe of the (as you call it jazzy) solo part (not per se the solo itself) reminded me somewhat of Priest's Run of the Mill. Very calm, very atmospheric.

On the album Morningrise:
I feel that Orchid has a more clean production. On Morningrise the distorted guitars sound crunchier. Not sure if that is the right term, but it sounds a little more processed (compressed even?). As Night Prowler already noted (I think he meant it specifically for this album; at least I would say so) this album has more of a Gothenburg sound, but also style. Some riffs reminded me of old In Flames (who also combined their music with unexpected acoustic passages). The atmosphere/feel of this album is more cold, icy (black metallish/Gothenburg/nordic). The debut album feels a little warmer and draws more from seventies prog album sound. So, this probably has to do with the production but I also think that the average acoustic passages on the debut album sounds a little more richer. On Morningrise, not on all songs but on more than on the debut, the acoustic and calm passages overall sound a little bit simpler, more stale. I am playing the album now on my stereo and hear the bass way better than when I had the CD in my car. Way more bassy stuff than on the first album indeed! Also in the non guitar line sections he sticks out

I really like the drumming from Anders Nordin. He also does nice stuff on Orchid, but here he certainly shines. He may be the least discussed subject but his drumming serves a great deal in these complex songs. It's no easy shit to back out and return like sudden venom when songs continue. He has cool little figures that fit very well to the rest. The crash cymbals sound very soft though. As if every hit is a splash. Still, the core of his playing, the rhythms and his snare drum and other toms are well heard.

Black Rose Immortal

The wave sounds that abruptly end the first part and transition into an entirely different melody with an entirely different feel is laughably bad.
It's fantastic. That new passage is so haunting. Beautiful low chords. Then they get heavier. The sudden stop of the first segment works. I find the acoustic passage in the middle the dullest moment of the album. It's not that great compared of most of their others and it also feels too lengthy.

The guitar melody on the left (is that Peter Lindgren?) @ 13.38-14.29 is fan-tas-tic! Man, so good. Michael plays some of it along in a harmony.
Then it is repeated for a very short while in acoustic form. This is the type of segment that deserves to be repeated. Around 15:28 we get a twist before we return to an acoustic part with funky bass. Not a big fan of the last two minutes. While I love the change of mood and later that fabulous guitar section, there are too many relatively(!) duller moments in a song of 20 minutes, too many to find it an absolute top track. Not a candidate for the 2 favourite songs from this album.

These spots go to Night and Nectar.

Silhouette - I love this piece, but it’s not perfect and it’s not really a song. I feel like if this album came out in 2002, this would have been a hidden track. Anyway, brilliant playing and it’s just plain spooky. Also so random considering the band had no keyboard/piano player, yet this song features nothing but. 7/10 - but will be getting a vote
I suspect we're hearing an uncredited performance by Dan Swanö, the producer of both Orchid and Morningrise.
 
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