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Official Iran Thread

Discussion in 'General Discussion' started by Perun, Mar 20, 2009.

  1. Perun

    Perun Climbing like a monkey Staff Member

    President Obama addresses Iran in New Year Speech.

    Today is Nourooz, the Iranian New Year, and Obama actually recorded a new year's address at this occasion. Obviously, it is mostly directed at the Iranian government, but say what you will, it is likely to flatter the one or other Iranian too. This is one of the finest pieces of diplomacy I've ever seen, and my respect for this man just grew.
    No clue what this is going to bring, but it's certainly a token of goodwill.
     
  2. LooseCannon

    LooseCannon Self-propelled artillery Staff Member

    Re: Obama reaches out to Iran

    At least he's talking to Iran.  It's a start, letting Iranians themselves know that Obama wants to speak to the government.
     
  3. Nigel Tufnel

    Nigel Tufnel Ancient Mariner

    Re: Obama reaches out to Iran

    I don't like this. we should have dealt with them 30 years ago when they took 52 hostages and held them for 444 days. And it was'nt the Khomeni government that did it. It was students that stormed the embassy. It is still a fundamentalist country ruled by Theocrats and enforce Sharia Law.
     
  4. Forostar

    Forostar Conjure the Death Star again

    Re: Obama reaches out to Iran

    Today's response wasn't very hopeful. It's up to the people to vote for a more moderate government. If the people will fuck up (again) I haven't much hope either. They seem to like their conservative puppets. Perhaps they don't have much other choice?
     
  5. Perun

    Perun Climbing like a monkey Staff Member

    Re: Obama reaches out to Iran

    Ahmadinejad only got voted because the people hated his rival. But they hate Ahmadinejad as well. They literally loathe him. He is bound to lose the next elections, given that his opposing candidate is extremely popular (and he is a reformist).
     
  6. SinisterMinisterX

    SinisterMinisterX Illuminatus Staff Member

    Re: Obama reaches out to Iran

    Ooh, there's a memory - that was the first political event I became interested in as a child. That's the moment when my world enlarged from "me and my friends" to "you mean there's a whole planet full of people?!?"

    But "dealt with them"? Really? Who died and made the US God?

    What kind of dealing with them would have kept the hostages alive? What kind of dealing with them would have still had any effect 30 years later? We dropped nukes on Japan, but 30 years after that they were developing into a major world power.
     
  7. Nigel Tufnel

    Nigel Tufnel Ancient Mariner

    Re: Obama reaches out to Iran

    I am just pointing something out. Iran is still a grave danger to America. They have'nt really changed all that much. Obama is very naive to think otherwise.
     
  8. LooseCannon

    LooseCannon Self-propelled artillery Staff Member

    Re: Obama reaches out to Iran

    Really?  How is Iran a grave danger to America?
     
  9. Invader

    Invader Ancient Mariner

    Re: Obama reaches out to Iran

    Yes, and that's why the US is building missile defences in Europe. [/sarcasm]
     
  10. Nigel Tufnel

    Nigel Tufnel Ancient Mariner

    Re: Obama reaches out to Iran

    Iran has vowed for our detruction. Death to America rallies. Their desire to become a nuclear power. Their likely willingness to use them against the United States or more probably Israel. The Iranian Governments use of state sponsord terrorism. 
    I don't think we need a missle defense system in Europe. We should use the resources for better intelligence about the Middle East. Nothing wrong with President Obama extending a hand to the Iranians, just he better think in a two pronged format.
     
  11. Zare

    Zare Dream of broken citadels

    Re: Obama reaches out to Iran

    If Israel has nuclear weapons, so should Iran.

    Whole Middle East, except Syria, Lebanon, and Iraq, is under USA/Israeli influence. Iraq, Saudi Arabia, Afghanistan (except the rebel controlled parts), Pakistan, Kuwait...Basically Iran wants to be a regional force and it can't do that if it's surrounded by westernized puppet states.

    It's just a geopolitical game on a very high level. Nobody's going to nuke noone. Carry on.
     
  12. LooseCannon

    LooseCannon Self-propelled artillery Staff Member

    Re: Obama reaches out to Iran

    Honestly?  Look, I'm just going to lay it out there pretty harshly.  The USA isn't the world's policeman, and threatening the USA isn't the same as making an actual attack.  Iran may be a dangerous state, and certainly harbors some pretty strong anti-American sentiment.  So did the USSR, so did Mao's China, but the USA didn't "take them out".  They pursued containment and diplomacy, and eventually, they won out in the end.

    I want you to take your sentence there and replace the words "Iran" with "Iraq".  It's the exact same justification used by Bush & Co. to get the USA into Iraq.  Iran can't destroy the USA, and they know if they get and use nukes on Israel, they are gonna get nuked back: a minor, Middle-East only version of Mutually Assured Destruction.  The only way to bring Iran down from being the high-strung theocratic nutjob state they can be is to talk them down.

    Besides, if the USA had walked in during the hostage crisis and gone to war with Iran, attacking, invading, what have you...1. the hostages would have been killed.  And nobody died in what actually happened.  2. The USA would have found itself drawn into a long, time-consuming and financially expensive war that had the potential to reduce its ability to press its advantage on the USSR.  Remember, in the same period, the USSR was in Afghanistan pissing its cash away there.  Iran wouldn't have been an easy fight.  3. The USA was only 5 or 6 years removed from the end of the Vietnam debacle.  No US civilians wanted to see a repeat.  4. Election year.

    And how would things have been any different?  Christ, attacking the Ayatollah?  That could have led to a very, very large jihad.  Look how much trouble we're having putting down a jihad in an Arab state that was pretty hated by other Arab states, and wasn't led by a major Islamic religious figure!  Take away 30 years of technology and add in a fairly admired state with a religious head, plus much better guerrilla terrain, and imagine the problems.
     
  13. Nigel Tufnel

    Nigel Tufnel Ancient Mariner

    Re: Obama reaches out to Iran

    I never stated that we should have taken them out. I stated that we should have dealt with them. I really wish that my country would find an alternative energy source than petroleum. We could then really pull out of the middle east all together. We could let Iraq collapse, Afghanastan to become worse and the Saudi Royal family to flee for their lives.

    Iran has tried to fight a proxy war with us in Iraq. I was never a fan of going into Iraq. Sadam Hussein was pretty well contained and what military power he had was merely a husk of itself to be put onto display. As for being the world's policeman, I wish we would stop that activity as well.

    The U.S.S.R. and P.C.R. were never a threat to the security to our country. As for containment, we never really did that much. It was mostly intelligence gathring, Glasnost and Prerostroyka that ended the U.S.S.R. Exposure to our culture, which is more similar than that of China or Iran, led to the fundamental change.

    Iran is a different animal and is a Islamic Fundamentalist Theocracy. Think of it as the Catholic Church of the Inquisition, but in these times. A totally different culture than that of the U.S.S.R. Iran only released the hostages because ronald Reagan vowed that he would use any means at his disposal to get the hostages free. Diplomacy was'nt getting it done. I don't know how much has changed in the 30 years, but Ahmadinejad does'nt really make all the decisions. The Supreme Islamic counsel are the ones that run  the show over there. Maybe diplomacy could work, maybe not.
     
  14. Forostar

    Forostar Conjure the Death Star again

    Iranian ships avoid ports where all their ships would be checked

    I am not sure if this the correct topic, if not it could be moved to another (or new?) one.

    Today I read something which (some of) you might find interesting to know. Controls can be done in Iran, but there are other ways:

    The Iranian state company IRISL is avoiding Dutch ports, possibly because the Netherlands carries out more intensive checks than elsewhere in Europe.

    Foreign Minister Maxime Verhagen told a Lower House meeting, “this is not proof, but it is an indication that something suspicious is going on.”

    The international community suspects Iran of trying to build nuclear weapon systems. As a result the United Nations Security Council has stipulated that Iranian sea and air freight can be checked.

    The Netherlands has taken things a step further and checks all Iranian ships. Minister Verhagen hopes other European countries will follow its lead. The strict controls do not only prevent the import of goods for making nuclear weapons, but also prevent weapons smuggling. The minister believes these weapons are destined for radical Islamic groups to use against Israeli civilians.

    EU concerns about Iran are increasing. According to the minister, it is “completely inconceivable” that Iran only plans to use nuclear technology and enriched uranium for peaceful purposes.

    He says the European Union has prepared a package of measures to tighten sanctions against Iran and will have to take the lead if the UN Security Council fails to introduce measures. The EU is due to meet in January to discuss the issue.

    The EU also plans to issue a declaration condemning human rights violations in Iran. After the re-election of President Mahmoud Amadinejad in June numerous opponents have been tortured and sentenced to death for participation in anti-government demonstrations.

    (source)
     
  15. ______no5

    ______no5 The Angel Of The Odd

    Re: Obama reaches out to Iran

    Iranian flag is targeted, Foro. And Paris MOU ports (which includes Netherlands) are very strict.
    This is something common in shipping, doesn't mean necessary that something is behind.

    If you've got a ship with a targeted flag, and if this ship is old, she'd better avoid the ports of Paris MOU and US Coast Guard
    if she don't want to be detained (which costs some thousand dollars per day, plus the ship and her flag get even more targeted)
     
  16. Forostar

    Forostar Conjure the Death Star again

    Re: Obama reaches out to Iran

    I guess this happens when a Frenchman explains something in English to a Dutchman ( :D ), but...
    .. I don't understand some things:

    Targeted?
    MOU ports?


    The article says that the Netherlands carries out more intensive checks than elsewhere in Europe.
    Paris lies in that area.
     
  17. ______no5

    ______no5 The Angel Of The Odd

    Re: Obama reaches out to Iran

    I'll spoil this one

    MOU= Memorandum of Understanding between different countries for the approach of shipping within their ports
    Not all MOU are the same strict, the most 'serious' are Paris MOU, USCG, and Tokyo MOU

    Targeted= Flags are rated by IMO (International Maritime Organization) into black, gray and white flags. Iran is as black as it gets.

    So when a vessel which is blag flagged enters to a serious port she will be inspected thoroughly by PSC (port police)
    and usually she'll get fucked. So usually black flagged vessel avoid to enter into Paris MOU or US Coast Guard port
    (in US some, they are not even allowed to do so)

    It looks a lot like politics, yet the field is purely (?) commercial 
     
  18. Forostar

    Forostar Conjure the Death Star again

    Re: Obama reaches out to Iran

    Alright.

    Still, the Netherlands have more strict control than in any another European country. I see no reason why should not believe our Minister of Foreign Affairs in this matter.
     
  19. Warhurst

    Warhurst Invader

    Re: Obama reaches out to Iran

    The reason might be that politicians like any other humans can make things look like something else. In this case perhaps the ships are being cautious for the economic reasons (if a ship is not allowed to leave it does cost a lot of money daily). But our Minister (secratary in English?) can say it is because they want to hide something. If we are sure that Iran is hiding something we can install punishment. That could be economic and as a last resort war.

    So perhaps our Minister is paving the way for future steps. Besides that I trust that man as little as possible, but that is personal.
     
  20. Perun

    Perun Climbing like a monkey Staff Member

    I hate writing long disclaimers before posting, but I know that every single word I write here is going to be weighed. The absence of disclaimers has brought me into unjustified defensive positions before, so it looks like I have to do it every time from now on. Here goes.

    The following post is not my opinion. I am not the Iranian regime, nor am I the Iranian people. I am also not playing advocatus diaboli here. It is not my intend to defend the Iranian regime or the Iranian people here, so it is going to be pointless to argue with me as if I were. The following is what I understand to be the viewpoint of the Iranian regime and the Iranian people - I am going to carefully word it so there will not be any doubt to which is which. I am posting it because I believe I have a bit more insight to the topic than most others here.


    Disclaimer #1 done, here comes disclaimer #2. In what I am going to post here, I will suggest that the Iranian regime and the Iranian people have a common viewpoint. This is going to sound like the Iranians support their regime- which they don't. Many Iranians died this summer alone to fight their regime. They want it gone more badly than any of you or anyone else in the world does... and that is a fact.


    Let's get to the post now. I know that many have asked themselves why the hell Iran is so stubborn in this situation. Why is it so hard to negotiate with Iran, despite the fact that very generous offers have been made? Why do neither carrot nor stick seem to work? If Iran really only wants nuclear power, then why are they so dickish about it and insist on enriching their uranium in their own country and all that?

    The reason is that Iran is tired of being treated like a second-class country. I have read Iranian media for several years now, and one term kept reappearing when talking about the international relations of Iran: independent nation. Iran demands the same rights as any other independent nation on this earth. They don't want their ships checked extra-strict. They don't see why any other country in this world, be it the US, Brazil, Japan, The Netherlands or whatever, can happily plaster their countries with nuclear plants and they can't. And, that too shouldn't be disregarded, they don't see why the US, UK, Russia, India or Pakistan can have nuclear weapons and they can't.

    That is independent of Ahmadinejad's rhetoric of wiping out Israel. Let's put this straight: Most Iranians hate Ahmadinejad, and his words about Israel are both a tactic (a very poor one) of driving attention away from his miserable performance as a politician, and simple attention-whoring. One of the most predominant accusations against Ahmadinejad is that he deprived the Iranian nation of its dignity.

    To most Iranians, the whole nuclear thing is not a big topic. They have different issues: Lack of freedom, poverty, unemployment and whatnot. The nuclear thing is simply non-existent in the average political Iranian's mind. But when you talk to them about it, and I really mean anti-Ahmadinejad Iranians, those who go out on the street and die fighting against him, you will still hear that they don't understand why they can't have nuclear power.

    Iranians are very sensitive when it comes to such things. This is something that is very difficult to understand for most westerners. In the course of the 20th century, many Iranians fought and died against foreign - western - dominance in their country. They were upset about seeing their country sold out to Russians, British and Americans, without getting even the smallest piece of the pie themselves. For a long time, Iran was under disability, patronised at best, enslaved at worst. Iranian governments were deposed and installed by foreign powers. For a decade, Iranians struggled long and hard for a constitution like every other independent nation in the world had, and then it became worthless because the Russians didn't like it. Leaders who had an interest in Iran becoming a strong, modern, independent nation were simply deposed by British, Soviet and American agents.

    This sort of thing doesn't sit well with a nation. The Iranians believe that they are only demanding something that every other nation has- independence and sovereignty. That is a thought to be found with every Iranian, regardless of their political affiliation. It is the idea that the western countries are sticking their nose into what is Iran's business. They hate that.


    Now go ahead and flame me.
     

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