Long Songs

Onhell

Infinite Dreamer
I decided to make a playlist on my computer of nothing but "long songs" regardless of genre. However I had a hard time deciding where to draw the line. The "standard" song is about 4:00 minutes yet Metal songs are far from "standard" most ranging in the 5 to 6 minute range, yet since I was including all genres should I use the "pop" standard of long songs or the "metal" standard I've grown used too? I opted for the "metal" and made the cut off 7:00 minutes, thus all my songs 7 minutes or longer made the cut, sad to say there were plenty of songs clocking at 6:57-6:59 that sadly I had to leave.


What would you guys consider "long" and what do you take into consideration?

The reason I ask is I Love REALLY long songs, my favorite tracks are 13 min and above so after listening to Octavarium, Hallowed Be Thy Name isn't that long.
 
Well, if we're talking about long songs, the classical genre cannot be ignored.  Things like Beethoven's Sonata Pathetique are pushing 20 minutes for a single instrument piece (sonata, duh), and if taken altogether, Stravinsky's Rite of Spring (Le Sacre du Printemps, if you must, Mav), is 40 minutes (roughly).

In Metal, however, there are plenty of good long songs, and some awful ones.  For example, most of Opeth's 'Morningrise' album is pushing 10 minutes, and yet is aprroximately 3 songs linked together (the riff will stop, a completely unrelated acoustic riff will take over, this continues, blah, blah).  Compare this to my description of Punish My Heaven's timing in your birthday thread, Onhell.  Sometimes long songs can be worse than a shorter song.
 
There are times I feel cheated if the song is less than 4 minutes in length. But I do have a liking for the less than long track. A couple of goodies in this category are:

Slayer - Necrophobic (01:38)
Stiff Little Fingers - Here We Are Nowhere (01:00)
 
Well, I just said my favorite songs are long song, not that long necessarily means "better" than short. Because there are plenty of long songs I can't stand (Helloween's Halloween for one), but I meant where is the cut of point on "long" persay? 6? 7? 6:30 minutes?
 
Albie said:
There are times I feel cheated if the song is less than 4 minutes in length. But I do have a liking for the less than long track. A couple of goodies in this category are:

Slayer - Necrophobic (01:38)
Stiff Little Fingers - Here We Are Nowhere (01:00)

Slayer-Raining Blood (Live)?

For some reason, Seasons in the Abyss got stuck in my head today. I was helping back bags at a supermarket and was singing it. Quite a strange experinence for the customers:
'Can I help you with that?'
'Yes, thanks'
'Close your eyes, stare deep in your soul...'
'What?'
'Nothing, nothing'...
;)

As for 'long', I would say any song over 6 minutes is long for non-metal, but for metal, probably about 6 and a half.
 
Onhell said:
but I meant where is the cut of point on "long" persay? 6? 7? 6:30 minutes?
I would not consider any song too long (hence I would not have a cut-off point), unless I lost interest in it during it's play. For example, I do find some songs that can last 6/7/8 even 13 minutes and think its not enough - it needs to be longer. So to say, what I consider long, is possibly a song that just about stretches my attention a bit. A song that may make me reach for that "Next Track" option, regardless of its length - if you see what I mean.
Silky said:
For some reason, Seasons in the Abyss got stuck in my head today. I was helping back bags at a supermarket and was singing it. Quite a strange experinence for the customers:
'Can I help you with that?'
'Yes, thanks'
'Close your eyes, stare deep in your soul...'
'What?'
'Nothing, nothing'...
;)
As a youngster (or a slightly younger person) and when that first come out, I really found that track exceedingly hypnotic. Had I not been as level headed as I was, God knows what I would have done......

"Step outside yourself, and let your mind go
Frozen eyes stare deep in your mind as you die" :huh:
 
It all lies in the eye of the beholder.

If you picked up an Opeth or Tool album and heard a song less than ten minutes, you would feel "cheated".

If you picked up a Slayer or Children of Bodom album and found any songs over six minutes, you would almost dread the prospect of such long songs.

As for love songs, fuck 'em :p
 
@Conor, very true, but I meant regardless of band
@Albie I just meant length in general, not "boring" or "interesting". Simply... on length(time), alone what is a long song. Silky says non-metal 6 minutes and metal 6:30. I'd say he's being generous with the non-metal category lol, I'd say 5 minutes is a long non-metal track, including rock 'n' rock.
 
I see where you're coming from, Onhell. A song of 5 minutes plus in non-metal (say pop, for example) could very well be considered too long, whereas a song of 9 minutes plus in metal would not (but over 13/14 minutes may be pushing it). So on that basis, a metal song should really be kept under 13/14 minutes (and if it does reach that length, it will need a little tempo change etc.). Generally, typical chart type songs are quite monotonous which would stand to reason why they need to keep it short (and the attention span of their fans would be quite short as well).

What I was merely saying is that if a song grabs you throughout its duration and keeps you there, no matter how long it is, the listener won't ever consider it to be too long.
 
Albie said:
I see where you're coming from, Onhell. A song of 5 minutes plus in non-metal (say pop, for example) could very well be considered too long, whereas a song of 9 minutes plus in metal would not (but over 13/14 minutes may be pushing it). So on that basis, a metal song should really be kept under 13/14 minutes (and if it does reach that length, it will need a little tempo change etc.). Generally, typical chart type songs are quite monotonous which would stand to reason why they need to keep it short (and the attention span of their fans would be quite short as well).

What I was merely saying is that if a song grabs you throughout its duration and keeps you there, no matter how long it is, the listener won't ever consider it to be too long.

A good insight.  In addition to what I said last night, I thought about some of my favourite songs which are quite short.  I used to think Skyfire-Effusion of Strength was way too short (just over 3 minutes) when I began listening to metal, with a lot of Maiden and Metallica, but it remains one of my favourite Skyfire songs, because, like Wrathchild, it is able to do a lot in the time allocated to it.  Similarly, Dark Tranquillity's 'Silence, and the Firmament Withdrew' is pretty short (2:35), but it is a brilliant slab of songwriting and most preferable to the tedious 'Honour Thy Father' by Dream Theater, which is pushing 14 minutes.
 
Good insight indeed! For that is exactly what I feel with a good long song (Helloween's Keeper of the Seven Keys or Symphony X's The Odyssey) where the song engulfs my senses to the point where when it's over I'm baffled to find out 13, 14 or 24 minutes have gone by... and I still want more!

The reason I like long songs so much is because music is an art (obviously) and for a musician to be albe to captivate you for 20 minutes is impressive. The way I see it a good long song is like a Dahli or Van Goh piece that just captivates you and you can stare for hours and never be bored in contrast to a 3 minute song on the radio can be compared to the comics in the sunday paper... yeah they're entertaining, but usually go in one ear and out the other just like the funnies eventually make their way to the recycling bin, or in a bird cage to be covered in shit.
 
Albie said:
There are times I feel cheated if the song is less than 4 minutes in length. But I do have a liking for the less than long track. A couple of goodies in this category are:

Slayer - Necrophobic (01:38)
Stiff Little Fingers - Here We Are Nowhere (01:00)

Annihilator - Crystal Ann (1:41)
Morbid Angel - Desolate Ways (1:40)
 
When it comes to short songs, look no further than Napalm Death's You Suffer. It clocks in at 1.316 seconds. ^_^
 
Stormtroopers of Death:
"Skool Bus" – 0:36
"Celtic Frosted Flakes" – 1:15
"Charlie Don't Cheat" – 0:24
"Dog on the Tracks" – 0:04
"Xerox" – 0:54
"Fugu" – 0:07
"Noise, That's What" – 1:11
"Frankenstein and His Horse" – 0:21
"Every Tiny Molecule" – 1:03
"L.A.T.K.C.H." – 0:27
"Ballad of Michael H." – 0:13
"Ballad of Phil H." – 0:08

(All on the one album ;))
 
In my opinion, 8+ min. would be what I consider "a long song".  For me, I don't change my opinion on that between music genres.  The Cure's Disintegration and New Order's Blue Monday are both between 7-8 min. long, but they seem like a short trip down music heaven street for me.  I tend to like longer songs more than shorter songs, because I can think about what is going on in the song and indulge myself in its "awsomeness".  I can also do this for a longer period of time.................................. :yey:
 
See, this is what happens when I take a job that takes up all my time. I miss out on interesting threads like this one. Fortunately, it got bumped into my field of vision.

Perhaps it's appropriate that as I write this, by complete coincidence, I'm listening to GNR's "November Rain" (8:57). And not all popular songs are short - this song was all over radio and MTV, in the full-length version, back in 1993 or so.

Speaking of the average length of pop songs, they're longer than you think. The average in the early 70s was 3:30, with many under 2 minutes. By the late 70's, 4 minutes was average, with 5 not unheard of and under 3 being rare. In the mid-80s, 4:30 was the average, 5 somewhat common, less than 3:30 becoming rare. In the early 90s, 4:30 to 5 was average, 5:30 somewhat common, 6 becoming more common.

How do I know this? I have folders on my mp3 drive with the top 100 songs from all years 1970-2004. I've been listening to all of them (I'm up to 1992 now). And these have been my observations. For example, the top 10 singles in the US in 1992 averaged exactly 4:30, ranging from 3:17 to 5:48.

Let's try an experiment. Let's say, arbitrarily, that "average" means something in the middle 70%. "Long" is the top 15%, and "short" is the bottom 15%. Looking at the various metal genres in my collection, this is what I get:

Heavy metal: 1831 songs, Long = 6:12 or more, Short = 3:21 or less
Hair metal: 304 songs, Long = 5:23 or more, Short = 3:24 or less
Power metal: 678 songs, Long = 6:27 or more, Short = 3:39 or less
Progressive metal: 485 songs, Long = 8:41 or more, Short = 3:31 or less

Conclusion: 6 minutes makes a song long, unless the band is progressive - then you need 8:30.

And what happens when I apply this methodology to Iron Maiden, including all the live tracks I have by the band?

Iron Maiden: 407 songs, Long = 7:34 or more, Short = 3:46 or less.
 
SMX, can you calculate the average length without your live versions?  It would make a good addition to the statistics thread ;)
 
Thanks SMX! I'm glad to see I wasn't that far off in my assesment of "standard" "short" and "long". I will no longer think you are crazy because you have the top 100 songs for every of the last 30 some odd years. Now I'll just think you crazy for living in Denver and not going to any Avalanche games :D
 
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