Iron Maiden's longevity

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Anonymous

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I received an interesting email a little while ago concerning Maiden's long-lasting success over the years despite the frequent changes of line-up. I'm now giving it to you to discuss...


[span style=\'font-family:Courier\']Hi,

I ran across your Iron Maiden site the other day after a web search. Someone
elsewhere had stated that Steve Harris was an atheist and I was digging around
for verification. Whether it's true or not, I'm not writing to discuss or
debate.

I am writing, however, to make comment on something you seemed to be trying to
say but couldn't put your finger on, about the success and longevity of Iron
Maiden in the face of so many changes in personnel.

The key, really, is that all members since 1979, aside from Stratton and
McBrain, were significant contributors to the creative process. Since the end
of the height of the jazz age, lineup changes were only for musicians and not
writers, becoming "interchangeable parts". To have key members go in an out of
a band usually meant their deathknell. Miles Davis was the last to survive
this. (Lose Gil Evans but gain Joe Zawinul, or lose John Coltrane but gain
Wayne Shorter? Even up on both counts.)

Since the 1960s, any group with multiple members who were highly involved in
writing and direction for long periods of time and had massive success never
changed their lineups, or when they did, they broke down: Chicago, Rush, Queen,
Van Halen, plus a few others I could name. Groups which did change membership
often and had great success had only one or two people at the core, and the
rest just circulated around them, such as The Rolling Stones, Steely Dan, or
The Pretenders, or named bands like Tom Petty and the Heartbreakers (Petty and
Mike Campbell) or Elvis Costello and the Attractions. Supertramp never
survived losing Roger Hodgson.

The only group that managed to survive many changes in creative members and
have longevity, aside from Iron Maiden, was Yes. They've had three drummers,
two singers, three guitarists and four keyboard players that I can name. Chris
Squire was the only mainstay for the band's duration, and he didn't write much.

I'm not claiming this is the be-all and end-all of such discussion, but it
might be what you were thinking of.

As for myself, I was an IM fan from way back when (I was born in 1967) and
listened from 1980 onward. I saw them "Somewhere on Tour" in 1986, in
Vancouver (the inflatable hands were memorable) but stopped listening after
"Seventh Son".

People change and grow; it happens. Now I only listen to old Iron Maiden songs
around Hallowe'en. (You know you're getting old when you think all new music
is crap and half your CD purchases are "greatest hits" compilations.)


Bob Dog[/span]
 
I don't really get what Mr. Dog is trying to tell us.
1) He says bands can't succeed when an important member quits
2) It happened to Maiden
3) they're still around

Fine, we all know that. But I can't see an answer to the question that is actually raised much more than answered by this e-mail: WHY!?

I guess you'll wait for little Freaky to tell you the formula of Maiden's success and longevity now... but I can't!

I could state a dozen "phenomenons" now, but not explain any of them.
However, I think one of the most important factors that we still can enjoy the mighty Maiden is... well, US! Their extremely loyal fanbase.
Like those fanatics worshipping the band or a single member as God(s). (INSANE!!! [!--emo&;)--][img src=\'style_emoticons/[#EMO_DIR#]/wink.gif\' border=\'0\' style=\'vertical-align:middle\' alt=\'wink.gif\' /][!--endemo--])

We should not forget that Maiden had a rough time back in the early 90's, not only because their music had declined a bit (from "divine" to "really damn good") but also because of the washed-out Metal scene.

The departure of the lead singer and a personality like Bruce would have been the last nail in the coffin for any other band, but not for Maiden.

Yes, they lost fans back then, but their hardcore following was obviously big enough to keep them going.

As I said, I can't really explain WHY they have such a fanbase, not from an objective/scientific point of view, at least... When talking to another fan, something like "cause they fuckin' rock!" would be more than enough though [!--emo&;)--][img src=\'style_emoticons/[#EMO_DIR#]/wink.gif\' border=\'0\' style=\'vertical-align:middle\' alt=\'wink.gif\' /][!--endemo--]
 
[!--QuoteBegin-Maidenfreak+Jan 24 2006, 12:26 PM--][div class=\'quotetop\']QUOTE(Maidenfreak @ Jan 24 2006, 12:26 PM)[/div][div class=\'quotemain\'][!--QuoteEBegin--]I could state a dozen "phenomenons" now, but not explain any of them.
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You forgot to mention that they're on a mission from Rod. [!--emo&:p--][img src=\'style_emoticons/[#EMO_DIR#]/tongue.gif\' border=\'0\' style=\'vertical-align:middle\' alt=\'tongue.gif\' /][!--endemo--]
 
I think much of it comes down the pure determination from the band's side to keep it going. Steve Harris formed the band with a vision, and led them through the early days to success, through hard times as well as good. When Paul left - which many at the time feared would be the end of the band - they didn't give up and found a replacement who brought them to even greater heights. When Bruce left 12 years later, they again refused to call it a day. With the solid ground of Steve's songwriting and commitment of the other members to fall back on, they could carry on through perils that would prove fatal to many other bands. Sometimes it led to lesser success, but they still made it. To sum it up: where other bands might have chosen to quit, Maiden were determined enough to continue.

At a sidenote, many bands have survived the loss of important members galantly. Pink Floyd for instance did it twice, first when Syd Barrett left and then when Roger Waters did it.
 
Bob Dog has a really great point, and I think he is completely correct.

What he's saying is that Maiden have always had solid songwriters...

Harris and Murray have always been there, of course.

When \m/ Adrian Smith the Magnificent \m/ left, he was replaced by Gers (another fine writer). Comparison: \m/ Adrian Smith the Magnificent \m/ had 2 or 3 writing credits on every album from NotB to SSoaSS. Gers had 5 on FotD and 6 on TXF.

What about the singers?
Dianno: 3 on the debut, 2 on Killers.
Dickinson: 4 on PoM & PS & SSoaSS, 6 on NPFTD, 5 on FotD.
So Dickinson, in this respect, was a definite improvement over Di'Anno.
Blaze: 5 on TXF, 3 on VXI.
So Blaze took up all the slack Bruce left behind.

But it's not just about quantity. Quality matters even more. So let's note that most people say Maiden's decline began when \m/ Adrian Smith the Magnificent \m/ left, and the decline was reversed after the reunion. This only reinforces Bog Dob's ... erm, Bob Dog's point. When the "classic" writers returned, the band was back to top form.

Of course, like many here, I'm not meaning to insult the "decline era" albums. While I still find NPFTD disappointing, I think they more than made up for it with 2 excellent albums with Blaze.

But the dominance of Harris' writing is the biggest issue here. Let's take a look at the current top 20 Maiden songs from my website. [span style=\'color:red\']Red[/span] means Harris is the only credited writer; [span style=\'color:purple\']purple[/span] means he is credited with others.

1. [span style=\'color:red\']Hallowed Be Thy Name[/span]
2. [span style=\'color:red\']Phantom Of The Opera[/span]
3. [span style=\'color:purple\']Paschendale[/span]
4. [span style=\'color:red\']Rime Of The Ancient Mariner[/span]
5. [span style=\'color:red\']The Trooper[/span]
6. [span style=\'color:red\']Infinite Dreams[/span]
7. Powerslave
8. [span style=\'color:red\']Aces High[/span]
9. [span style=\'color:red\']Sign Of The Cross[/span]
10. [span style=\'color:purple\']The Evil That Men Do[/span]
11. [span style=\'color:red\']Fear Of The Dark[/span]
12. Revelations
13. [span style=\'color:purple\']Dream Of Mirrors[/span]
14. [span style=\'color:red\']Afraid To Shoot Strangers[/span]
15. 2 Minutes To Midnight
16. [span style=\'color:purple\']Dance Of Death[/span]
17. [span style=\'color:purple\']Still Life[/span]
18. [span style=\'color:red\']Children Of The Damned[/span]
19. [span style=\'color:red\']The Clansman[/span]
20. [span style=\'color:purple\']Killers[/span]

17 out 20 with Harris involved, 11 of those by Harris alone.

Can anyone seriously argue that Maiden's longevity is not connected to Harris' writing? Yes, we know he's always had determination to keep Maiden going. But if the music sucked, would any of us care?

Consider this: imagine that the next Maiden album has zero songs written (or co-written) by Harris. Would it still sound good? Probably, but it wouldn't sound like Iron Maiden.

In summation, Dob Bog ... erm, Bob Dog is correct. Those who doubt him are wrong. That it all. [!--emo&:D--][img src=\'style_emoticons/[#EMO_DIR#]/biggrin.gif\' border=\'0\' style=\'vertical-align:middle\' alt=\'biggrin.gif\' /][!--endemo--]
 
Iron Maiden's longevity

Excellent post! Regarding Harris' writing, I stated something similar in my post ("With the solid ground of Steve's songwriting to fall back on"), although I didn't develop the statement as much as I first intended to. Paul, Adrian and Bruce all contributed more or less extensively to the songwriting process, but they were all, in a way, replacable. Blaze's and Janick's writing on The X Factor is as good anything the former three did with a handful of exceptions. Not so with Steve; he was involved in most of Maiden's best songs and without his writing Maiden wouldn't be like the Maiden we know.

Let's face it, Maiden has always circled around Steve Harris. He is the founding member, band leader and main writer, and his combination of great songwriting and determination is perhaps the main reason for Maiden's longevity. Without him, the band wouldn't even exist. Consequently, the day Steve decides to quit Maiden is over.

But no matter how good the writing is, you still have to be determined enough to put in the effort of doing an album, and that goes for all the members. Bruce leaving was commercially one of the worst things that could happen, and meanwhile Steve was going through a rough time personally and didn't know if he still had the energy to go on. For most bands, that'd be the final nail in the coffin, but not for Maiden. When Steve was doubtful, strength came from the other members, and they pulled themselves together, said bollocks to Bruce, hired a new singer and released what is probably my favourite Maiden album.
 
Dave (co-)wrote 24 songs.
Adrian (co-)wrote 25 songs.
Janick (co)-wrote 26 songs.

Not much difference, eh?

Now there is more balance than ever on the last 2 albums. On Brave New World and Dance of Death 'Arry wrote only one song on his own. He gives more room to the others and contributes to their ideas.

I don't see what this has to do with longevity, though. Ok, of course good songs are important to continue, but it doesn't matter who writes them.

Like Shadow says: longevity has more to do with determination. Also with the performances Maiden give and with the success of the albums.

The performances, the touring etc are very important. Even if Maiden made great albums in the past, without touring so much they wouldn't have much ground to stand on.
 
[!--QuoteBegin-Forostar+Jan 29 2006, 06:24 PM--][div class=\'quotetop\']QUOTE(Forostar @ Jan 29 2006, 06:24 PM)[/div][div class=\'quotemain\'][!--QuoteEBegin--]
Like Shadow says: longevity has more to do with determination. Also with the performances Maiden give and with the success of the albums.

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I tend to agree. If a band is successfull, it is not suprising that they'll continue to do what they do. So, given the fairly consistent level of success Iron Maiden has enjoyed over the years, it seems to me that their longevity does not require special explanation. What does require explanation, of course, is how a band managed to maintain a fairly consistent level of quality and success over 25 years! That fact, I think, is what requires explanation; not their longevity.
 
[!--QuoteBegin-macunaima+Feb 1 2006, 01:59 AM--][div class=\'quotetop\']QUOTE(macunaima @ Feb 1 2006, 01:59 AM)[/div][div class=\'quotemain\'][!--QuoteEBegin--]What does require explanation, of course, is how a band managed to maintain a fairly consistent level of quality and success over 25 years! That fact, I think, is what requires explanation; not their longevity.
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[/quote]Are you saying that Maiden's longevity is a miracle and has nothing to do with their fairly consistent level of quality and success?
I know what you mean. They could have deteriorated into a local band that plays in small pubs for ten quid a night, or at weddings, and what keeps them still together is the fact that the members are used to each other's company [!--emo&:p--][img src=\'style_emoticons/[#EMO_DIR#]/tongue.gif\' border=\'0\' style=\'vertical-align:middle\' alt=\'tongue.gif\' /][!--endemo--]
 
[!--QuoteBegin-charlotte+Feb 1 2006, 04:52 AM--][div class=\'quotetop\']QUOTE(charlotte @ Feb 1 2006, 04:52 AM)[/div][div class=\'quotemain\'][!--QuoteEBegin--]Are you saying that Maiden's longevity is a miracle and has nothing to do with their fairly consistent level of quality and success?
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No. I'm saying that given their consistent success, it is not surprising that they've lasted this long so no long debate is required over why they have. The explanation is easy: they've lasted this long because they've been successful. Now, again, one might ask: how have they managed to be successfull this long? Ah, well that's the million-dollar question but I think SMX had some good insights into its answer.
 
[!--QuoteBegin-macunaima+Feb 1 2006, 04:08 PM--][div class=\'quotetop\']QUOTE(macunaima @ Feb 1 2006, 04:08 PM)[/div][div class=\'quotemain\'][!--QuoteEBegin--]No.  I'm saying that given their consistent success, it is not surprising that they've lasted this long so no long debate is required over why they have. 
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[!--QuoteBegin--][div class=\'quotetop\']QUOTE[/div][div class=\'quotemain\'][!--QuoteEBegin--]The explanation is easy:  they've lasted this long because they've been successful.
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[!--QuoteBegin--][div class=\'quotetop\']QUOTE[/div][div class=\'quotemain\'][!--QuoteEBegin--]Now, again, one might ask: how have they managed to be successfull this long?
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[/quote]Oh dear, you are getting a bit mixed up on the notions [!--emo&:D--][img src=\'style_emoticons/[#EMO_DIR#]/biggrin.gif\' border=\'0\' style=\'vertical-align:middle\' alt=\'biggrin.gif\' /][!--endemo--]
If they are around for this long (solely) because they are successful, then the explanation of their success is at the same time the explanation of their longevity.

I disagree anyway. Commercial success alone does not guarantee longevity, nor does artistic success/quality. Nor does a good songwriter, a good lyricist, a good drummer, guitarist, singer, not even good chemistry between band members, or their determination. It may however, and the more of these factors come together, the more likely it is that the band should live on. Maiden has an interestingly high number of hits (pun intended [!--emo&:)--][img src=\'style_emoticons/[#EMO_DIR#]/smile.gif\' border=\'0\' style=\'vertical-align:middle\' alt=\'smile.gif\' /][!--endemo--] ).
 
[!--QuoteBegin-charlotte+Feb 1 2006, 09:33 AM--][div class=\'quotetop\']QUOTE(charlotte @ Feb 1 2006, 09:33 AM)[/div][div class=\'quotemain\'][!--QuoteEBegin--]Oh dear, you are getting a bit mixed up on the notions [!--emo&:D--][img src=\'style_emoticons/[#EMO_DIR#]/biggrin.gif\' border=\'0\' style=\'vertical-align:middle\' alt=\'biggrin.gif\' /][!--endemo--]
If they are around for this long (solely) because they are successful, then the explanation of their success is at the same time the explanation of their longevity.
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Uh, I agree that whatever explains the success will help explain their longevity; but I don't think that means I'm "mixed up on the notions."

You're right that success doesn't guarantee longevity, but that doesn't mean it doesn't help explain it; it might even be a big part of the explanation.

In any case, I wasn't trying to split hairs here. The point of my post was to help us focus the dicsussion. Instead of wondering why Maiden has lasted so long, let us ask how they've managed to be consistently successfull for so long. We're more likely to make progress on the second question than the first, and if we can answer it, we'll get an answer to the first as a bonus (or at least a good part of the answer).
 
[!--QuoteBegin-macunaima+Feb 1 2006, 09:24 PM--][div class=\'quotetop\']QUOTE(macunaima @ Feb 1 2006, 09:24 PM)[/div][div class=\'quotemain\'][!--QuoteEBegin--]...let us ask how they've managed to be consistently successfull for so long.
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[/quote]Fussmaker speaking: Might my previous post be of help? [!--emo&:rolleyes:--][img src=\'style_emoticons/[#EMO_DIR#]/rolleyes.gif\' border=\'0\' style=\'vertical-align:middle\' alt=\'rolleyes.gif\' /][!--endemo--]
 
Just a note on credits
To stick up for paul, remember a lot of the songs from the first two albums had been around for quite a while before Paul which may have not given him the chance(or the need) to write any more than required. FOTD really being the album which to had to begin from scratch in terms of ideas etc.
As I mentioned in another post Bruce provided much "moral" contribution to RtotheH, CoftheD and TheP which could not be credited due to contractual issues. so up/modify/subtract the bruce/harris writing count.



On to the topic of Maidens longevity, I feel its all the different members the group has/had that make/made the band fresh whilst steve still providing the Iron core.

The average time that maidens band members have made an album without a addition/replacement is 1.8 albums before a change.
each album has at least 4+ good(in my opinion) songs (except NPFTD which has 3 good and a few semi decent) quite an achievement which many other bands would extreamely envious of.
 
[!--QuoteBegin-Legionnaire+Feb 1 2006, 11:37 PM--][div class=\'quotetop\']QUOTE(Legionnaire @ Feb 1 2006, 11:37 PM)[/div][div class=\'quotemain\'][!--QuoteEBegin--]FOTD really being the album which to had to begin from scratch in terms of ideas etc.
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I don't get your point here, mentioning FOTD?

Not only FOTD but ALL albums since NOTB started from scratch (ok, there are indications that BNW is an exception).

We have heard, read and even seen this in many interviews, biographies, documentaries (dvd's).
 
[!--QuoteBegin-Forostar+Feb 2 2006, 03:10 AM--][div class=\'quotetop\']QUOTE(Forostar @ Feb 2 2006, 03:10 AM)[/div][div class=\'quotemain\'][!--QuoteEBegin--]I don't get your point here, mentioning FOTD?

Not only FOTD but ALL albums since NOTB started from scratch (ok, there are indications that BNW is an exception).

We have heard, read and even seen this in many interviews, biographies, documentaries (dvd's).
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I must say I disagree on that, because in one of the interviews that were made to Bruce when FotD came out (you can find it in the Wasting Love thread), Bruce clearly states that whenever they wrote a new song, they had some sort of "base" in the previous album, then Bruce says that in FotD, they started from scratch.
 
Major edit, sorry must have been on another planet(whats new)
Replace FOTD with NOTB in my last post lmao.
Dont know where FOTD came from!
Apologies to all
 
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