Iron Maiden: individual album judgement by yours truly
- Thread starter Forostar
- Start date
It's just another way to look at how we are evaluating these songs. If we're going to do it, we might as well do it from several angles.
Black Thunder
Ancient Mariner
Great idea Foro! Have a praise.
I have nothing to add
I have nothing to add
Genghis Khan
Ancient Mariner
I just finished voting for all the IM songs. Here they are for all to see.
Prowler 6
Sanctuary 7
Remember Tomorrow 10
Running Free 6
Phantom of the Opera 7
Transylvania 7
Strange World 4
Charlotte the Harlot 9
Iron Maiden 3
Charlotte and Phantom will probably shock most of you. Oh well.
The average is 6.556, which is what I'd expect from this album. That would make my rating the lowest of the maidenfans listed so far. Kind of unfortunate.
Prowler 6
Sanctuary 7
Remember Tomorrow 10
Running Free 6
Phantom of the Opera 7
Transylvania 7
Strange World 4
Charlotte the Harlot 9
Iron Maiden 3
Charlotte and Phantom will probably shock most of you. Oh well.
The average is 6.556, which is what I'd expect from this album. That would make my rating the lowest of the maidenfans listed so far. Kind of unfortunate.
I bet if you play with those numbers you can get it to 6.66.
Genghis Khan
Ancient Mariner
A goal for the future. 
Forostar
Ancient Mariner
Mckindog, I hope you don't mind I quote your post in this topic. I don't want to stain vala's topic with my ramblings about my own album judgement method.
I wonder how you do that. How can you love an album while no less than half of it you rank in the bottom third of the catalogue?
Then, how big is that love, relatively seen, when putting it in the context of Maiden's whole discography?
I mean, I guess you don't skip anything when you play it and I hope you don't ignore these songs when you judge it?
On page one I have explained why album rankings are sometimes lower than people might expect, so I hope you have taken this into account. You can't just substitute lesser songs with aspects like cohesion and themes. I mean you can, but then you really "forget" to bring the lesser songs into this context.
My bottom line question:
How do you "eliminate" lesser songs when you love an album?
I am curious to see how much you love Killers less or more than other albums with higher rankings. In the end we'll find out!
mckindog said:
I wonder how you do that. How can you love an album while no less than half of it you rank in the bottom third of the catalogue?
Then, how big is that love, relatively seen, when putting it in the context of Maiden's whole discography?
I mean, I guess you don't skip anything when you play it and I hope you don't ignore these songs when you judge it?
On page one I have explained why album rankings are sometimes lower than people might expect, so I hope you have taken this into account. You can't just substitute lesser songs with aspects like cohesion and themes. I mean you can, but then you really "forget" to bring the lesser songs into this context.
My bottom line question:
How do you "eliminate" lesser songs when you love an album?
I am curious to see how much you love Killers less or more than other albums with higher rankings. In the end we'll find out!
First off, I want to make it perfectly clear that I wasn't trying to argue against your thesis. On the contrary, eight albums in I am finding it proving to be correct.
My rankings based on my daily song thread scores seem to match my album-as-a-whole rankings pretty closely.
I'll try my best to answer your specific questions
This one is easy. It's Maiden.
We'll see, but I imagine the Killers ranking will probably continue the trend of proving your thesis. There's a "but" that I'll try to explain further down.
I am absolutely taking into account all songs. I think I get what you mean about people saying (for example) "Powerslave is the best album ever! I mean I hate the middle four songs, but the other four are AWESOME!
"
That's not happening here. In fact, I think I'm coming from exactly the opposite direction.
My Killers argument is not a case of eliminating its lesser songs. A fairer criticism might be that I am minimizing the impact of the highest songs on other albums.
Here's where I'm coming from: If I sit down and listen to FOTD and Killers from front to back, I prefer Killers — no question.
I've yet to score FOTD, but I am betting its average is not much different than what I give Killers. It's highs are higher, it's lows are lower, but in terms of average song quality, it's pretty close.
So why do I prefer Killers? There has to be a reason.
And the best reason I can come up with is the pieces seem to fit, the album seem to flow. The lows are disguised by their placing in the playlist, the way they fit with what comes before and what comes after.
Standing alone, Twilight Zone is, in Maiden terms, a mediocre song, a five or a six. But as a short, up-tempo bridge between the ferocious, nasty Killers (an 8 ), and the beautifully somber Prodigal Son (7), it works quite nicely; it fits the frame and the album keeps moving. I remain lost in the picture the album is painting. Hitting the fast-forward button never crosses my mind.
Fear is the Key, meanwhile, is such a jarring lurch from the three songs before it — in terms of both quality and style — FOTD loses all momentum. I reach for fast-forward.
Conversely, because of its placing in the context of the album, Judas Be My Guide is reminiscent of a track star on a bad relay team. Dominant in its own 100-metres, but so far back in the race that when it gets the baton, it's great finishing kick is wasted.
In fact, the sports analogy may be the best one for the point I'm trying to make.
Most of the time the team with the best athletes wins.
But when those athletes aren't working together, a focused effort from a less-talented but more disciplined squad can carry the day.
It's indisputable song quality is the single most important element in any album.
But cohesion and theme are assets.
And when song quality is close, they can make the difference.
Clearly my longest post ever.
Thanks for indulging me.
My rankings based on my daily song thread scores seem to match my album-as-a-whole rankings pretty closely.
I'll try my best to answer your specific questions
Forostar said:
This one is easy. It's Maiden.
Forostar said:
We'll see, but I imagine the Killers ranking will probably continue the trend of proving your thesis. There's a "but" that I'll try to explain further down.
Forostar said:
I am absolutely taking into account all songs. I think I get what you mean about people saying (for example) "Powerslave is the best album ever! I mean I hate the middle four songs, but the other four are AWESOME!
"That's not happening here. In fact, I think I'm coming from exactly the opposite direction.
Forostar said:
My Killers argument is not a case of eliminating its lesser songs. A fairer criticism might be that I am minimizing the impact of the highest songs on other albums.
Here's where I'm coming from: If I sit down and listen to FOTD and Killers from front to back, I prefer Killers — no question.
I've yet to score FOTD, but I am betting its average is not much different than what I give Killers. It's highs are higher, it's lows are lower, but in terms of average song quality, it's pretty close.
So why do I prefer Killers? There has to be a reason.
And the best reason I can come up with is the pieces seem to fit, the album seem to flow. The lows are disguised by their placing in the playlist, the way they fit with what comes before and what comes after.
Standing alone, Twilight Zone is, in Maiden terms, a mediocre song, a five or a six. But as a short, up-tempo bridge between the ferocious, nasty Killers (an 8 ), and the beautifully somber Prodigal Son (7), it works quite nicely; it fits the frame and the album keeps moving. I remain lost in the picture the album is painting. Hitting the fast-forward button never crosses my mind.
Fear is the Key, meanwhile, is such a jarring lurch from the three songs before it — in terms of both quality and style — FOTD loses all momentum. I reach for fast-forward.
Conversely, because of its placing in the context of the album, Judas Be My Guide is reminiscent of a track star on a bad relay team. Dominant in its own 100-metres, but so far back in the race that when it gets the baton, it's great finishing kick is wasted.
In fact, the sports analogy may be the best one for the point I'm trying to make.
Most of the time the team with the best athletes wins.
But when those athletes aren't working together, a focused effort from a less-talented but more disciplined squad can carry the day.
It's indisputable song quality is the single most important element in any album.
But cohesion and theme are assets.
And when song quality is close, they can make the difference.
Clearly my longest post ever.
Thanks for indulging me.
Forostar
Ancient Mariner
And you thanks for explaining very well the way you see it!
I am only afraid that skipping a song might have negative consequences, on the longer term. The following is not per se meant for you, it's just an idea I have in general (and I hope people don't feel offended in any way).
If one skips a song in an early stage (e.g. one knows the album pretty shortly) because the song is disturbing for its quality/negative impact on the cohesion, I can imagine that there's some kind of urge/impatience to select the next track. In a way, it's logical because the flow should not be interrupted, and there's a need to go to the following cool song.
But when this skipping becomes and stays a habit, then the opportunity is not given to let it grow. Just like an album, a song can also grow. Can grow, not must grow. But it's about this decreasing opportunity. So when Loosy brings on the songs from e.g. Fear of the Dark or Virtual XI, and we will vote for all these separate songs, then surely some members will vote who skip songs regularly. In this mp3 era we can't even talk about skipping. One makes favourite compilations and just takes two or three favourite songs of these albums and totally ignores the others. When this happens, I have my doubts about this album judgement ranking system, because these people know the songs that they play very well, but the other songs not that well. It feels like only half of the album is judged by the same merits.
On the other hand, I understand this skipping habit. Some people rather hear half a nice album instead of a whole album with negative moments. Still, I think this has impact on the rankings.
Did I understand that Judas Be My Guide has a "late" position on the album? But realize, if you'd place it earlier, then it has other consequences for the flow. As a result, you might get more "less nice tracks" in a row, near the end of the album.
I am only afraid that skipping a song might have negative consequences, on the longer term. The following is not per se meant for you, it's just an idea I have in general (and I hope people don't feel offended in any way).
If one skips a song in an early stage (e.g. one knows the album pretty shortly) because the song is disturbing for its quality/negative impact on the cohesion, I can imagine that there's some kind of urge/impatience to select the next track. In a way, it's logical because the flow should not be interrupted, and there's a need to go to the following cool song.
But when this skipping becomes and stays a habit, then the opportunity is not given to let it grow. Just like an album, a song can also grow. Can grow, not must grow. But it's about this decreasing opportunity. So when Loosy brings on the songs from e.g. Fear of the Dark or Virtual XI, and we will vote for all these separate songs, then surely some members will vote who skip songs regularly. In this mp3 era we can't even talk about skipping. One makes favourite compilations and just takes two or three favourite songs of these albums and totally ignores the others. When this happens, I have my doubts about this album judgement ranking system, because these people know the songs that they play very well, but the other songs not that well. It feels like only half of the album is judged by the same merits.
On the other hand, I understand this skipping habit. Some people rather hear half a nice album instead of a whole album with negative moments. Still, I think this has impact on the rankings.
Did I understand that Judas Be My Guide has a "late" position on the album? But realize, if you'd place it earlier, then it has other consequences for the flow. As a result, you might get more "less nice tracks" in a row, near the end of the album.
I finished reviewing this album. If I calculated it correctly, my average song rating is 8.0.
