European Politics

Things are heating up in Spain indeed.

I like how these Catalans are not afraid of consequences. Not intimidated by fearmongering as in Britain happened.
 
Why on earth would the Spanish government do this? They've already had a non-binding vote in 2012 (or whenever it was); they could easily have just let this go (ignoring the obvious result, as they did previously). But instead they've got police literally fighting with voters at polling stations. Are they trying to stoke up anti-Spanish sentiment or something? Totally counter-productive. This is the exact opposite of what they should have been doing.
 
To be fair, the Catalans are disobeying the rule of the Spanish constitutional authority. The correct method to go about this would be to call for a constitutional convention to add the right to secession to the Spanish constitution, which specifically describes Spain as indivisible. Of course, it would have been better to just ignore the result and not make a big deal of it.
 
Zare said:
Ever heard of Franco? Fucking Castillan sausages, I just hope this is the beginning of the end. I want to see Spain completely dismantled in my lifetime, not only for Catalans but for Basques too.
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Do you support the disestablishment of all countries that have different peoples living in it? Because that's what you're advocating for here, the establishment of micronationalist smaller states.

LooseCannon said:
To be fair, the Catalans are disobeying the rule of the Spanish constitutional authority. The correct method to go about this would be to call for a constitutional convention to add the right to secession to the Spanish constitution, which specifically describes Spain as indivisible.
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Apparently, calling for an independence referendum as an autonomous region within a country without care for the said country's constitution is okay, because it's "democratic".

Though what the Spanish government is doing is idiotic, no question. The idea should be to make sure Catalans get their due treatment within Spain and don't want to seperate. Police brutality is not how you achieve that. You'll simply get Catalans becoming even more disenfranchised and angry against the Spanish government.
 
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Northern Ireland should have served as a lesson to the rest of Europe, but obviously not. :eek: If Spain wants Catalan paramilitary groups, then this is how they get paramilitary groups.
 
Europe is disintegrating before our eyes and people are cheering for it. Soon, we will speak of peace in Europe in past tense.
 
LooseCannon said:
To be fair, the Catalans are disobeying the rule of the Spanish constitutional authority
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@The_Flash FYI Spain is an exception. Check the last 500 years of their authority. Spanish nationalism is based on hanging on whatever was left after their kings and queens looted half of the world and spent it on booze and hookers, together with making joint values via heavy oppression of tradition.

People on these forums talked that Assad 'lost legitimacy'. Where the fuck is legitimacy of Spain? For all I care, the fucks are the only bigger European country having direct lineage with fascists.
 
Perun said:
Europe is disintegrating before our eyes and people are cheering for it. Soon, we will speak of peace in Europe in past tense.
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I fail to see how Europe is disintegrating when a hypothetical sovereign Catalonia remains in EU.
 
This is all very interesting, but it still doesn't excuse rubber bullets & manhandling voters; illegal vote or not. The scenes on TV (while relatively minor) were still totally avoidable & unnecessary. Fundamentally I fail to see how this approach is useful at all from a Spanish authorities perspective.
 
Zare said:
when a hypothetical sovereign Catalonia remains in EU.
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I don't see this happening. It would require Madrid to approve of Catalonia's independence, and they don't seem fond of the idea right now. Some other countries in the EU might not like the idea either, like France, Italy or Belgium, all of which would be threatened by the precedent Catalonian independence sets.
 
Without trying to make this too personal, I can't help looking at where forum members are coming from.

Zare: a country that broke apart from Yugoslavia (1991).
Perun: a unified (or reformed!) country (1989).
LooseCannon: a country with a province with (some) people in it who wish to be independent.
Black Wizard: a country that includes a country with (some) people in it who wish to be independent. He does not live in the 2nd mentioned country.
Cried: does live in the 2nd country mentioned above.
Flash: a country with some people in it who wish to have their own country.
 
Approve? I don't know enough about the current Catalonian political situation to say I passionately approve of the political decision to hold this particular vote in this manner. I haven't really been following the build up to this, to be honest. And I also do understand the point (and possible fear some have) made about disintegration & creating multiple micro-national states; although I think the number of countries-within-countries that a have a reasonable claim to the kind of autonomy Catalonia or Scotland have is relatively small across Europe. But, ultimately, I don't really see the point in denying people the right to have a poll/vote under the right circumstances. I think all things considered the UK Government (when you look at what's happening today in Spain) handled the Scottish independence vote request pretty well. No idea what the threshold is in this current vote either. A straight majority (like in Scotland) is not really an acceptable threshold for a vote of this magnitude I don't think.
 
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Forostar said:
Without trying to make this too personal, I can't help looking at where forum members are coming from.

Zare: a country that broke apart from Yugoslavia (1991).
Perun: a unified (or reformed!) country (1989).
LooseCannon: a country with a province with (some) people in it who wish to be independent.
Black Wizard: a country that includes a country with (some) people in it who wish to be independent. He does not live in the 2nd mentioned country.
Cried: does live in the 2nd country mentioned above.
Flash: a country with some people in it who wish to have their own country.
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Croatia didn't break away from Yugoslavia, it seceded from it, having full constitutional rights to do so, being a constituent member of a federation of nations.
Serbia never played it's not constitutional card tho. Yugoslavia is more complicated and off topic.

I base my own opinions around both legislation and also the chain of cause and consequence that led to current situation.
 
Turkey is also a seperate issue, there's no autonomous region in the country. A referendum is not an option. It's either convincing Kurds that staying is the better idea, or going into armed conflict.

Turkish Kurdistan is also nowhere near as developed, united and stable as Catalonia, Scotland, Quebec etc. are. They'd be doomed unless Kurds got independence in Iran, Iraq and Syria and successfully formed a unified Kurdish state.
 
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