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Dio Reverse Survivor Playoffs: picking a winner is Heaven and Hell

Discussion in 'Forum Games' started by mckindog, Jul 10, 2016.

?

Pick your favourite Dio song

Poll closed Aug 25, 2016.
  1. Gates of Babylon

    20.0%
  2. Heaven and Hell

    80.0%
  1. Forostar

    Forostar Conjure the Death Star again

    Thanks for hosting mckindog.
    It is. This top 10 and the order was not representative.

    1) Excellent: the non-chronological order of the songs. I hope this will be done more often in other games.

    2) I am very concerned about the way songs were eliminated. The impact was to be seen the most when the songs entered into the top ten. This is not just about the number one song right? We'd love to see what is in the top 10, however low the ranking within the top 10 is. It's still a "place of honour", going down in history.

    When we had 11 songs left, people had to choose their 6 favourites (a very arbitrary number: why not 7, 8, 9 or 10? 10 would have been best if we want to know which 10 songs were the most popular). The one with the least votes fell off. But that did not mean that people liked that song the least (that people had it as their number 11 song from the 11 that were left)! It just wasn't among their favourite 6.
    Summary:
    This format (or choice within the format) does not give songs that might have a low top 10 popularity (rank 7, 8, 9 or 10) a good chance to reach the top 10.

    3) Unfortunately, due to tactical voting -probably enforced by (choice within) the format- the order in the top 10 was not representative. E.g. Stargazer would have been higher if we'd vote for the least favourite song(s).

    How to address 2 and/or 3? A possible solution: give people more votes. Voting for all but one songs would be the most representative way. Perhaps that method has a disadvantage but at least it sounds more honest.

    4) It was a shame such a small number of people played. Dio is a very popular singer out here.
     
    Last edited: Aug 26, 2016
  2. mckindog

    mckindog Living for Sanctuary from the law Staff Member

    I read this as saying "I prefer the traditional survivor voting style."
    And that's fine.

    Pretty much every survivor has limits on how many votes you get. I guess you can call those limits arbitrary but they aren't chosen without reason. In this case, the limit was to force you to pick the songs you like the most and not fall back into the traditional survivor voting style. Essentially, the format put the emphasis on people's favourite songs, not their least favourite. If you had 10 votes for 11 songs, aren't you essentially voting out your least favourite?

    To say the results are not representative is odd.
    The entire point was to see how voting for favourites instead of voting against least favourites affected the results.
    It is entirely representative.
     
    Mosh and MrKnickerbocker like this.
  3. Forostar

    Forostar Conjure the Death Star again

    If you want to play it this black and white, yes. But there's more to it. I want a more honest way to get to the top 10. And when we reached the top 10 people did not vote for their top favourites. They used the votes they had to support lesser heroes.
    Yes, but it's the only way to get to the most favourite ten. I find that more important than having the most favourite six in a top 10. A top 10 is not a top 6 plus a few more.
    We've seen it.
    It affected the results in such a way that people did not select their most 10 favourite solos. It selected their 6 most favourite solos.

    In any case, I appreciate you're trying out new ways, but you can't deny that this top 10 is not representative for people their tastes. I gave you the arguments. I am not making it up.
     
    Last edited: Aug 26, 2016
  4. MrKnickerbocker

    MrKnickerbocker clap hands

    I get what you're saying, but your solo survivor was based on head-to-head matchups which will naturally produce different results than, say, posting twenty solos at once and telling people to vote for their ten favorites.

    Every survivor is going to include tactical voting, one way or another. Personally, I think it's very interesting to do a survivor in this manner simply to see how it affects the top 10. Probably not always the way to go, but in the case of these very popular bands I think it's worth it. If it saves me from another year of "Hallowed vs. Rime vs. Powerslave" I'm happy.
     
  5. mckindog

    mckindog Living for Sanctuary from the law Staff Member

    I can absolutely deny it. Just because the vote didn't match your expectations doesn't mean the results are flawed.
    You are comparing apples to oranges.

    Tarot Woman made it because NP and maybe a few others, really, really liked it.
    I pushed as hard as I could for Die Young and was successful. Not so much with Caught in the Middle. I liked those songs so much that I was willing to sacrifice Stargazer. That is how the game works.

    You tried for Egypt and failed because the voters didn't feel as strongly about it as you did.
     
  6. MrKnickerbocker

    MrKnickerbocker clap hands

    Hey, I tried for Egypt, too. I can't help that you're all a bunch of heartless monsters!!! :jedi:
     
  7. Forostar

    Forostar Conjure the Death Star again

    I wasn't comparing with the solo game. It sure is interesting to see how things happened. That doesn't mean that I loose interest on figuring out how to get to the best 10 (and how to have a good order).
    Again you talk around what I'm saying. Yes, they didn't feel as strong for it, but it sure could have been their number 8, 9 or 10, from these 11 (I'm not sure if you get this point, but maybe you're just not interested). With this format we cannot know if it still would have made the top 10. I am sure there was a reasonable chance it could have.
     
    Last edited: Aug 26, 2016
  8. mckindog

    mckindog Living for Sanctuary from the law Staff Member

    I entirely get what you saying.
    I just think your argument applies equally to the standard survivor format.

    The only way to address what you are talking about is for everybody to rank every song in order, eliminate the one with the lowest overall score, then re-rank them and continue.
     
  9. Forostar

    Forostar Conjure the Death Star again

    Or not every song, but only the last 15, or 11.

    But asking everybody to rank them, is that indeed the only way? We can also ask them to:
    - vote for the least favourite to have it eliminated or
    - vote for all but the least favourite to have all but one promoted

    This is indeed essentially the same as old school; but what is exactly arbitrary about that? I don't understand that (yet).


    By the way, if nothing of the above will be done, it's still exciting (perhaps also less predictable!) to see what will happen.
     
  10. Mosh

    Mosh The years just pass like trains Staff Member

    I'm not sure what's so odd about the top ten. It's not like these songs aren't favorites. I love Tarot Woman and wanted it to be in the top ten. As much as I love Stargazer, if everyone agreed with me that it's the #1 Dio song then more people would've voted for it. Clearly they preferred other songs.
     

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